Help kordon ich attack

[MrTuskfish]

In line with what Bill is saying above, many (most?) aquarists rely on visual symptoms on the fish to diagnose parasites. Better technique would be to learn to read the fish's behavior. Flashing, reclusiveness, fast breathing, hanging near the surface or water returns, or sensitivity to light are all precursors to a fish displaying visual signs of a parasite. Visual signs, in the case of brook or velvet, may actually be too late. Also, many of the ich deaths reported are more than likely velvet related; ich, because of the exponential character of the life cycle usually takes longer to actually do a fish in.

Yes; a lengthy, up close observation period of new fish is vital; even if nothing bad is discovered, and it usually isn't.
I don't know how many times I've heard that a QT a stressful place----quite the opposite. A proper QT is probably the least stressful place a fish will ever experience. Nothing to bother him and not thousands of predators lurking nearby to eat him.

 

[gone fishin]

I have not seen so many of the forums heavyweights in one thread for quite awhile. Some excellent advice given. Hopefully people will be able to sort it all out.

 

[tmz]

Thanks I'm sure the heavywieghts appreciate the kind words. I used to be a heavyweight but lost 50lbs to fix my blood pressure last year.

Seriously ,it's an important subject worthy of as much attention as it can get.The information is available in the Fish Disease forum and the folks there do a great job with it on a day to day basis. I five them kudos for a effort that takes energy.,study and tremendous patience. Some of us haunt other forums but will pop up elsewhere,particulary the New to the Hobby Forum from time to time.

Folks will do what they will with it but if it saves some tanks and puts a dent in the carnage in the hobby it's worth the effort.

 

[YUPPERS]

You are welcome. It's frustrating and tiring but I hope it's worth the effort.

Look at this guy. Thinks he knows it all. People like you are what is wrong in America today. Do you evem take the time to look up naphthoquinones? Guess what it treats and is scientificly proven.

Malaria is a mosquito-borne infectious disease of humans and other animals caused by parasitic protozoans (a group of single-celled microorganisms)

Now lets see what crypto is:

marine ich is a ciliate protozoan (single-celled animal) known to science as Cryptocaryon irritans

Now that we know the active ingredient in these snake oils actually is what doctors use to treat parasitic infection in animals and humans you migt want to reexaming your stance and do a bit more reading on google. I have never used it, but i am smart enough to actually research whats in them and why its still on the market.

Old thread but people like this guy who is getting all high and mighty needs a lesson in civility as he doesnt know it all and people smarter than him have studied this stuff. This Tom guy is like a sheep that follows without question.

Oh and here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89320/

Here its talks about metro another one of those drugs that reefers say doest work. It has a bunch of pages so try to follow along till the end. I can get you all the references about naphtho too if you desire but i think a quick google search will suffice.

 

[ljosh]

So did you dump these drugs in your reef?

Probably completely reef safe?

 

[MondoBongo]

Look at this guy. Thinks he knows it all. People like you are what is wrong in America today. Do you evem take the time to look up naphthoquinones? Guess what it treats and is scientificly proven.

Malaria is a mosquito-borne infectious disease of humans and other animals caused by parasitic protozoans (a group of single-celled microorganisms)

Now lets see what crypto is:

marine ich is a ciliate protozoan (single-celled animal) known to science as Cryptocaryon irritans

Now that we know the active ingredient in these snake oils actually is what doctors use to treat parasitic infection in animals and humans you migt want to reexaming your stance and do a bit more reading on google. I have never used it, but i am smart enough to actually research whats in them and why its still on the market.

Old thread but people like this guy who is getting all high and mighty needs a lesson in civility as he doesnt know it all and people smarter than him have studied this stuff. This Tom guy is like a sheep that follows without question.

Oh and here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89320/

Here its talks about metro another one of those drugs that reefers say doest work. It has a bunch of pages so try to follow along till the end. I can get you all the references about naphtho too if you desire but i think a quick google search will suffice.

you're conflating an awful lot of things of here. the ncbi link you shared is a study specifically referencing a sub-set of parasites that are sensitive to it.

from your provided link:

In anaerobic or microaerophilic bacteria or luminal parasites, metronidazole is activated when it receives an electron from ferredoxin or flavodoxin that was reduced by POR (9, 36, 37, 40, 47, 61, 68, 72, 87, 88). POR, which may be detected by measuring the coenzyme A (CoA)-dependent reduction of methyl viologen, is inactivated by oxygen. Among microorganisms, there is nearly a one-to-one correspondence between the presence of POR activity and metronidazole sensitivity

do you have any sources that specify that the infectious agent that causes ich (C. irritans) is, in fact, part of this group?

 

[MondoBongo]

Here its talks about metro another one of those drugs that reefers say doest work. It has a bunch of pages so try to follow along till the end. I can get you all the references about naphtho too if you desire but i think a quick google search will suffice.

so yeah, read the thing you linked, and took your advice and did some more googling.

you're not even in the ballpark here with any of your assumptions, and as i assumed you have severely conflated several things to jump to an incorrect conclusion.

Cryptocaryon irritans is NOT a luminal protozoa.

here is some reading on what IS a luminal protozoa:

http://www.bpums.ac.ir/UploadedFiles/CourseFiles/Intestinal_and_Luminal_Protozoa__c1a26882.pdf

the key to the paper you linked to in your original post addressed a specific group of luminal protozoa which metronidazole shows efficacy against because:

Luminal protozoa and bacteria are killed by metronidazole because they share the same fermentation enzyme, POR

C. irritans does not appear to be included in the group that metronidazole is effective against. likely because it lacks the specific POR that metronidazole needs to be activated.

congratulations for arguing against your own point. i await your erratic and angry reply.

cheers!

 

[gone fishin]

I will just agree with Mondo and the know it all guy. I am sure it will not be long until the discussion turns to garlic and ginger.

 

[YUPPERS]

Lol, since i have been doing this for a bit. I tend to use google and read. I could care less about anecdotal evidence. The simple truth is that 1-4 naphthoquinones which is the active ingredient in reef safe medication has research behind it other than all of our own experiences which means squat ans is used by scientist to kill parasites which includes ciliate protozoa which is what crypto is. You guys have probably killed just as many fish trying to save them with copper etc as people have by praying over them.


"Malaria is caused by protozoa of the genus Plasmodium; these are apicomplexan parasites and are part of the alveolate grouping [1]. As well as other animal pathogens such as Toxoplasma, Crytptosporidium, Theileria and Eimeria, alveolates also comprise free living ciliate protozoa such as Paramecium and Tetrahymena and also the dinoflagellates."

I could care less about peoples anecdotal evidence and tend to agree with scientist. Oh and i will do some more research on metro but again i would be more incline to go with seachem than some random reefers personal experiences. I always find it funny that the same people that will spout off how great paraguard and cupramine is etc but say the rest of the companies products suck. Im sure they took as much care in developing their other products as they did with those.

Lol, angry response haha. Im not a liberal who gets angry over anon post.

 

[MondoBongo]

Lol, since i have been doing this for a bit. I tend to use google and read. I could care less about anecdotal evidence. The simple truth is that 1-4 naphthoquinones which is the active ingredient in reef safe medication has research behind it other than all of our own experiences which means squat ans is used by scientist to kill parasites which includes ciliate protozoa which is what crypto is. You guys have probably killed just as many fish trying to save them with copper etc as people have by praying over them.


"Malaria is caused by protozoa of the genus Plasmodium; these are apicomplexan parasites and are part of the alveolate grouping [1]. As well as other animal pathogens such as Toxoplasma, Crytptosporidium, Theileria and Eimeria, alveolates also comprise free living ciliate protozoa such as Paramecium and Tetrahymena and also the dinoflagellates."

I could care less about peoples anecdotal evidence and tend to agree with scientist. Oh and i will do some more research on metro but again i would be more incline to go with seachem than some random reefers personal experiences.

but you misread the science. the links that YOU posted don't support your point. this is not anecdotal evidence, this is a lack of reading comprehension on your part. it's ok, it happens to the best of us when we're furiously googling to support some spurious claim that we've made.

in fact, after reading them, it's clear that the ich protozoa is NOT included in the group that the study you linked to is referencing. i'm not using anecdotal evidence here, i'm using the studies that you yourself cited.

just because something is a ciliated protozoa, doesn't mean it is the same as all ciliated protozoa. from the mammal world a good example would be that people can eat chocolate, but dogs can't without getting sick (or possibly dying). just because both humans and dogs are mammals, doesn't mean that they will react the same way to any given substance. same with other forms of life.

the ich parasite is distinct from those effected by metronidazole. it's as simple as that. you can't claim that you're using science, then completely ignore what the science says. that's actually worse than anecdotal evidence.

you know, it's ok to just admit you were wrong.

as for naphthoquinones, please post your links to the research that is behind it. i would love to read it. i can't find anything concrete on it's efficacy against crypto right now, so if you have sources i would very much be interested in reading them.

 

[YUPPERS]

So did you dump these drugs in your reef?

Probably completely reef safe?

No, i just like to debate and see people humble themselves. i have only used paraguard and prazi with a clown fish. Almost 20 yrs ago i killed my freshwater fish and was mad as hell. So i read and read and snagged every book i could find as internet wasnt the best place at that time for knowledge, the library was.

 

[YUPPERS]

but you misread the science. the links that YOU posted don't support your point. this is not anecdotal evidence, this is a lack of reading comprehension on your part. it's ok, it happens to the best of us when we're furiously googling to support some spurious claim that we've made.

in fact, after reading them, it's clear that the ich protozoa is NOT included in the group that the study you linked to is referencing. i'm not using anecdotal evidence here, i'm using the studies that you yourself cited.

just because something is a ciliated protozoa, doesn't mean it is the same as all ciliated protozoa. from the mammal world a good example would be that people can eat chocolate, but dogs can't without getting sick (or possibly dying). just because both humans and dogs are mammals, doesn't mean that they will react the same way to any given substance. same with other forms of life.

the ich parasite is distinct from those effected by metronidazole. it's as simple as that. you can't claim that you're using science, then completely ignore what the science says. that's actually worse than anecdotal evidence.

you know, it's ok to just admit you were wrong.

as for naphthoquinones, please post your links to the research that is behind it. i would love to read it. i can't find anything concrete on it's efficacy against crypto right now, so if you have sources i would very much be interested in reading them.

Well i suggest you keep reading. And no its ok bud, i could care less and Heck, if you even want we can conduct our own research into this stuff. I mean you dont agree with scientist and say things like, well it might be a ciliate proto but does it kill THIS one. Lol, ok bud i guess that makes you smarter than the scientist. Hey, i know! Why dont you contact these researcher and ask them yourself if it works on killing marine protos or get a grant and do the research yourself.

And whats with all this u mad bro crap. Im not a liberal or 12 thanks.

 

[MondoBongo]

Well i suggest you keep reading. And no its ok bud, i could care less and Heck, if you even want we can conduct our own research into this stuff. I mean you dont agree with scientist and say things like, well it might be a ciliate proto but does it kill THIS one. Lol, ok bud i guess that makes you smarter than the scientist. Hey, i know! Why dont you contact these researcher and ask them yourself if it works on killing marine protos or get a grant and do the research yourself.

And whats with all this u mad bro crap. Im not a liberal or 12 thanks.

if you would kindly provide your sources i would love to review them. but barring that, you're just an angry person on the internet making unsubstantiated claims.

i can assume you're someone who got very upset over being wrong in one of these threads and made a burner account to fight back?

please, prove me wrong. post the information and research you've found. the community will be better off for having it, and i will be first in line to admit that i am wrong.

all you have to do is provide some shred of proof.

 

[Chicagoreef2016]

This thread was like a fight in high school, entertaining and educational all in the same vein.

 

[LuizW13]

This thread has burned almost two hours of work in the office :mixed:

Lessons i learned from this thread:

1. Some People believe it's best to keep living conditions in tank perfect to allow the infected fish to live longer in the tank in order to reduce stress to infected fish versus trying to take it out of the tank.

2. Some people believe it's best to endanger the life of the entire fish stock to prevent stress of ONE fish.

3. People who are placed in this situation only get there because they did not QT the fish prior to introduction to main tank.

3(a). Once in this situation they will be faced with moral and scientific/medical choices in order to eradicate the disease. Usually leading them to buying medications and spending time researching and debating with others.

4. Invest in a simple QT environment for any fish and avoid lessons 1-3.

5. If initially invested in QT environment, less headaches and stress for the human is encountered. Has the potential to be more cost effective long term.

SUMMARY:

Invest in simple QT environment.



Observations by a total noob


:lol2:

 

[gone fishin]

This thread has burned almost two hours of work in the office :mixed:

Lessons i learned from this thread:

1. Some People believe it's best to keep living conditions in tank perfect to allow the infected fish to live longer in the tank in order to reduce stress to infected fish versus trying to take it out of the tank.

2. Some people believe it's best to endanger the life of the entire fish stock to prevent stress of ONE fish.

3. People who are placed in this situation only get there because they did not QT the fish prior to introduction to main tank.

3(a). Once in this situation they will be faced with moral and scientific/medical choices in order to eradicate the disease. Usually leading them to buying medications and spending time researching and debating with others.

4. Invest in a simple QT environment for any fish and avoid lessons 1-3.

5. If initially invested in QT environment, less headaches and stress for the human is encountered. Has the potential to be more cost effective long term.

SUMMARY:

Invest in simple QT environment.



Observations by a total noob


:lol2:

Why that is a very astute observation :thumbsup:. The methods and procedures listed in the stickies are tried and proven methods to deal with ich. I personally prefer to use the Tank Transfer Method (TTM)

 

[tmz]

Look at this guy. Thinks he knows it all. People like you are what is wrong in America today. Do you evem take the time to look up naphthoquinones? Guess what it treats and is scientificly proven.

Malaria is a mosquito-borne infectious disease of humans and other animals caused by parasitic protozoans (a group of single-celled microorganisms)

Now lets see what crypto is:

marine ich is a ciliate protozoan (single-celled animal) known to science as Cryptocaryon irritans

Now that we know the active ingredient in these snake oils actually is what doctors use to treat parasitic infection in animals and humans you migt want to reexaming your stance and do a bit more reading on google. I have never used it, but i am smart enough to actually research whats in them and why its still on the market.

Old thread but people like this guy who is getting all high and mighty needs a lesson in civility as he doesnt know it all and people smarter than him have studied this stuff. This Tom guy is like a sheep that follows without question.

Oh and here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89320/

Here its talks about metro another one of those drugs that reefers say doest work. It has a bunch of pages so try to follow along till the end. I can get you all the references about naphtho too if you desire but i think a quick google search will suffice.

First of all, personal attacks like:

People like you are what is wrong in America today.

This Tom guy is like a sheep that follows without question.

will not be tolerated. on RC. Don't do it again .


Your nonsense isn't worthy of debate , civility or the dignity implied by a response beyond gutter talk.



[/B]

 

[tmz]

For those interested in quinine treatments. They may work but do pose some problems for reef tanks. There a large thread on them ,btw.

This is a quote from an earlier post by Snorvitch on this one which at least one poster hasn't even bothered to read :

Chloroquine, a quinine derivative, and other related compounds have been recommended for use against Cryptocaryon and other protozoan parasites including Amyloodinium (Dickerson 2006; Stoskopf 1993; Noga 1996; Roberts et al. 2009; I Berzins, pers. comm.; T. Clauss, pers. comm.). One recommended treatment regimen is 10 mg/L chloroquine diphosphate as a prolonged bath; duration of 2 to 3 weeks or more may be required. Chloroquine appears to be fairly stable. If water changes are necessary, redose in amounts proportional to quantity of water removed.

 

[YUPPERS]

For those interested in quinine treatments. They may work but do pose some problems for reef tanks. There a large thread on them ,btw.

This is a quote from an earlier post by Snorvitch on this one which at least one poster hasn't even bothered to read :

Chloroquine, a quinine derivative, and other related compounds have been recommended for use against Cryptocaryon and other protozoan parasites including Amyloodinium (Dickerson 2006; Stoskopf 1993; Noga 1996; Roberts et al. 2009; I Berzins, pers. comm.; T. Clauss, pers. comm.). One recommended treatment regimen is 10 mg/L chloroquine diphosphate as a prolonged bath; duration of 2 to 3 weeks or more may be required. Chloroquine appears to be fairly stable. If water changes are necessary, redose in amounts proportional to quantity of water removed.

Nice you were the guy i was talking about in my original post. The simple fact is antimalaria drugs do kill crypto and products like ich attack etc. Are trying to uses the same chemical compounds. Now i dont know if it works but there is science behind it which yoy just talked about with quinine.

So your posts on this thread was the reason why i posted nice seeing that youre a hypocrite to boot.


Wrong ,the quinine treatment was noted and supported as a potentially viable treatment long before you brought it up. There is nothing in any of my posts to warrant these attacks and mindless bloviating.

Well at least I can breath.;no ich is eating my lungs

<font size="1" color="#0000FF">profanity removed</font>

 

[YUPPERS]

if you would kindly provide your sources i would love to review them. but barring that, you're just an angry person on the internet making unsubstantiated claims.

i can assume you're someone who got very upset over being wrong in one of these threads and made a burner account to fight back?

please, prove me wrong. post the information and research you've found. the community will be better off for having it, and i will be first in line to admit that i am wrong.

all you have to do is provide some shred of proof.

Huh? You can look ay my profile and see my post. I dont post here usually and go to my local reef forum. I was just calling out guys who didnt even take the time to look into why ich attack is even on the market etc.

Does it work? doesnt seem to from what i read but im not arrogant enough to think i know more than scientist who play with diseases for a living.