Help with Disease in LFS

[JackandJill]

Calling experts:

What is the best way to reduce disease in a commercial setup?

Obviously it is impractical to quarantine every incoming fish. Therefore we WILL have Ich, brook, velvet, etc. eventually. Enough fish come through that every single parasite is likely to end up in the system.

Treating with medication seems counter productive.

Is a sufficiently sized UV sterilizer and keeping water quality pristine the only way to go to reduce the outbreaks?

 

[Tiberione]

Many stores quarantine every fish.

 

[JackandJill]

Many stores quarantine every fish.

I doubt that

 

[Tiberione]

I doubt that

you can doubt but it won't change the fact that it happens. Some do some don't. Depends on how quickly they need to get rid of their fish.

 

[Jeff210]

you can doubt but it won't change the fact that it happens. Some do some don't. Depends on how quickly they need to get rid of their fish.

My LFS quarantines every incoming fish and won't sell them until the quarantine is complete...

 

[Tiberione]

My LFS quarantines every incoming fish and won't sell them until the quarantine is complete...

Ive lost almost every fish I used to buy from a LFS that didn't quarantine and just stuck them all in tanks with one sump.. I switched stores to one that does and I haven't lost a single fish... Then again maybe I just got better at reef keeping lol

 

[Breadman03]

I doubt that

Agreed. While I'm sure that some QT, the vast majority don't. I've witnessed all 8 stores that I visit put fish straight from the shipping box into their displays.

 

[JackandJill]

Agreed. While I'm sure that some QT, the vast majority don't. I've witnessed all 8 stores that I visit put fish straight from the shipping box into their splays.

I would believe it if all of their fish cost 2x more than most other stores. From a business perspective, it is totally impractical to quarantine correctly. Emphasis on correctly.

 

[slief]

Many stores quarantine every fish.

I agree. The more reputable stores have a QT system and suggesting that it's impractical to QT all fish is probably not the best logic unless the idea is just to shove stuff out the door like most typical LFS's. Fact is that all stores work on a 100-200%+ mark up when it comes to livestock. They build in margins for casualties.

My LFS has a fish only system and an invert/coral system as well as a QT system. The fish only system system has elevated levels of copper maintained at treatment levels and lower salinity. They also have a QT system for obviously sick fish. The invert system is at natural sea levels of salinity with no copper but also houses some fish. Like most other stores, they will sell fish that just came in. I wouldn't touch one of their fish unless it's been there for a couple weeks.

Some stores like Vivid fresh water dip all incoming fish. At least that is my understanding from my several visits there and watching them do it. They also have a fairly large QT setup. They may even QT all fish as I have been there and been told that fish in their QT/treatment system are not ready for sale.

I wish more stores were like Vivid when it comes to taking the care to insure fish are as healthy as possible before going to their new homes. Sadly, most stores acclimate the fish and put a price on them as soon as they hit the water which is why I rarely if ever buy fish from stores. Instead, I give my buddy Jim my wish list and he picks them up at the wholesaler when he goes. Depending on the fish, I will either have him QT them for two weeks in his treatment system or I pick them up from him and take them home in the bags from the wholesale and acclimate them directly into my display. Some would say I am nuts but my logic is that I have a very large healthy system with very little stress and lots of hiding places along with very good food. It's better than most places these fish will end up. I've done that for many many years and never had an issue doing that but I only do that with fish like fairy wrasses, cardinals and pygmy angles. Tangs and clowns have always gone to QT at his place before they come here.

 

[SPotter]

I would believe it if all of their fish cost 2x more than most other stores. From a business perspective, it is totally impractical to quarantine correctly. Emphasis on correctly.

Do you own a store?

 

[JackandJill]

Do you own a store?

I do

 

[SPotter]

I do

I guess you need to revamp how you do things then because even my LFS has a very strict quarantine process for all new fish and their prices are not much higher than live aquaria. I have been there on the day that fish arrive, seen something I like and wanted to buy it. I was told that I would have to wait a minimum of 21 days before they will sell the fish. During that period the fish goes thru a very specific treatment before they are put into the display system.

 

[Coelli]

My favorite LFS quarantines fish depending on who they got them from. Some places they buy from, like ORA, they'll only quarantine for a week or two, others stay in the back for a while. Another LFS just keeps the fish on a separate system from the coral and runs copper. Given the choice of the two, which do you think earns my money as a customer interested in healthy livestock?

I guess the question is what kind of business you want to run and what kind of reputation you eventually want to earn.

 

[Jeff210]

Ive lost almost every fish I used to buy from a LFS that didn't quarantine and just stuck them all in tanks with one sump.. I switched stores to one that does and I haven't lost a single fish... Then again maybe I just got better at reef keeping lol

There was another LFS in my area that didn't quarantine and had huge problems with customer's complaining about fish that died within a week or developed diseases...

He is now out of business...

 

[Tiberione]

Do you want to be the store that offers great quality non-diseased fish (as much as you can) or do you want to be the one that has ill fish... From a business standpoint if the customer is happy he will return.. This is where your investment in a qt system will come back.. After my experience with LFS that don't qt I would never buy from a non-qt'd fish store.

I do

 

[JackandJill]

I'm interested to hear how other stores do their quarantine process. How long, how many tanks, do they only order once every 6 weeks?

 

[pktech]

Do you want to be the store that offers great quality non-diseased fish (as much as you can) or do you want to be the one that has ill fish... From a business standpoint if the customer is happy he will return.. This is where your investment in a qt system will come back.. After my experience with LFS that don't qt I would never buy from a non-qt'd fish store.

I would buy from a store that didn't qt fish - that's something I do myself. I think the customer should do their homework equally if not more, knowing a LFS is there to sell me something. 21 days of qt with running low levels of copper will only mask ich & probably not eradicate it.

So the fish looks great for 21 days then it gets dumped into the display & doesn't get along with the other tankmates, gets stressed & develops ich & now we're upset w the store that qt'd it. Seems like a no win situation in this case.

 

[mpderksen]

Kudos to you for asking the question. Your profile doesn't show where you are, (not sure on the rules for posting commercial interests). I will say that as a consumer, I care far more about a quality, healthy purchase and will pay more for it.
As a business owner, I'm sure you have financial considerations that I can't relate to, but repeat business has to be high on your list of priorities. Word gets around in local reef clubs, and true hobbyists catch wind of bad experiences pretty quickly. I'm a member of the Northern California Reefers club, and it's pretty well known which shops to avoid, and which to purchase from. Then again, we likely make a very small percentage of the traffic.
That said, my favorite shop doesn't QT at all, so I do it myself, because they were cool enough to walk me through it from the beginning. They use copper in the fish area, and keep the corals on a separate system. But I could purchase something that came in that day if I asked. Educated staff is a plus.

 

[.Chris.]

I work at an LFS. There is not a single LFS in my region or neighbouring region which QTs correctly. It's essentially impossible from a business perspective.

Someone said their LFS QTs for 21 days. First of all, I absolutely don't believe that. Second, even if they did that, they are wasting their time, space and money, as a 21 day QT is useless.

In the LFS for which I work, we have two main systems of fish, one for inverts, several independent tanks, and four coral systems.

What we do in our store is run elevated levels of copper (0.55 mg/L) in our main system (approx. 3000g, 120 tanks), checked daily with a Hanna Instruments High Range Copper Calorimeter. We regularly dose pure Praziquantel into the system at a dose 3x the indicated level, 3x with 3 days between each dose. We also add praziquantel to the food we make (it's a blend of about ten different varieties of mysis, brine, krill, spirulina, etc.).

We almost never have issues with bacterial or fungal infections, thankfully.

In our smaller system (approx. 750g, 10 tanks) , we receive premium orders, such as Hawaii, Fiji, Cuba, Vanuatu, etc. Between orders, we flush the system with freshwater and extremely high concentrations of copper for a month.

Again, I think that anyone who believes that their LFS does a proper QT is kidding themselves. Most LFS are small, and absolutely cannot afford to let several thousand dollars of fish sit in tanks that aren't on display to possibly die in the tank and lose money on. Not to mention the costs associated with labour to take care of the fish, continuing to feed them while they are in the store, etc. If you're paying anywhere close to liveaquaria prices for your fish, then you're not getting QTed fish.

 

[gone fishin]

If a LFS QT or not is not important to me. I do not trust that job to anyone but myself, if disease gets introduced into my DT that is on me. If the store has active and decent looking fish then home they go and into my QT protocol.

Personally I do not believe the majority of shops do a correct QT. Maybe enough to say they do. I guess that is just the cynic in me.