Herbie overflow?

SFish

New member
So with a ghost overflow Herbie style the emergency drain pipe sets the water height. Does it matter then if the bulkhead is placed in the middle (height wise) of the two boxes? Lets say the bulkhead is 1/2 way up the box but the emergency drain pipe is 1" below the top of the outside box then water would raise about 1" from the top of then inside box right?
 
The level in both the inside skimmer box and outside scupper box will be the same as long as the bulkheads connecting the two don't restrict flow in any way.
 
So with a ghost overflow Herbie style the emergency drain pipe sets the water height. Does it matter then if the bulkhead is placed in the middle (height wise) of the two boxes? Lets say the bulkhead is 1/2 way up the box but the emergency drain pipe is 1" below the top of the outside box then water would raise about 1" from the top of then inside box right?

No, the emergency drain does not set the water height in the overflow box. The emergency, more properly called "DRY emergency" should not have anything to do with the water. E.G. it is DRY!

The water height in the overflow box is determined by the siphon inlet. The water height needs to be high enough above the inlet to the siphon so that a vortex does not form, (which is air being sucked into the siphon.) It need not be any higher.

The height of the dry emergency determines the amount of "head pressure" available to purge the air out of the siphon. To little, and your efforts will be frustrated. Too much, and you are wasting space. In a sense it does govern "how high" the water level will rise, in any given scenario, but it does not determine the running water level.
 
SFish ... It doesn't matter how high or low the connecting bulkheads are. In fact, I think some of the ghost designs have the bulkheads too high. Requires holes that are too close to the top rim of the tank. It's the exterior box drains that determine water height not the connecting bulkheads.
 
No, the emergency drain does not set the water height in the overflow box. The emergency, more properly called "DRY emergency" should not have anything to do with the water. E.G. it is DRY!

The water height in the overflow box is determined by the siphon inlet. The water height needs to be high enough above the inlet to the siphon so that a vortex does not form, (which is air being sucked into the siphon.) It need not be any higher.

The height of the dry emergency determines the amount of "head pressure" available to purge the air out of the siphon. To little, and your efforts will be frustrated. Too much, and you are wasting space. In a sense it does govern "how high" the water level will rise, in any given scenario, but it does not determine the running water level.

I think there is some confusion going on here. In a Herbie overflow the emergency drain pipe is not dry as far as I know. The closing off of the valve does set the height through. Thanks for a detailed explanation.



 
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SFish ... It doesn't matter how high or low the connecting bulkheads are. In fact, I think some of the ghost designs have the bulkheads too high. Requires holes that are too close to the top rim of the tank. It's the exterior box drains that determine water height not the connecting bulkheads.

This is what I was trying to get at. I just wanted to be sure I was thinking of it in the right way.

Thanks!!!

I have a 1 1/2" bulkhead so I need to be at least 1 1/2" from the top and side of the tank right?
 
I think there is some confusion going on here. In a Herbie overflow the emergency drain pipe is not dry as far as I know. The closing off of the valve does set the height through.

The site you noted also has a detailed discussion on dry versus trickle emergency. I run mine with a trickle, not because I misunderstand but because I choose to do it that way. Is keeping it dry better - absolutely. Does a trickle portend the apocalypse - absolutely not. So do it whichever way makes sense to you, just be cognizant of the tradeoffs. FWIW, on my next tank I'm running a ghost with a 3 drain system where there is no good reason to let the emergency ever get wet ..... well, unless there's an emergency.
 
I have a 1 1/2" bulkhead so I need to be at least 1 1/2" from the top and side of the tank right?

Not entirely clear on what you are asking. My overflow uses three 1 1/2'' drains out of the bottom of the external box and two 2" 'through' bulkheads connecting both boxes through the back wall of the tank.
 
Not entirely clear on what you are asking. My overflow uses three 1 1/2'' drains out of the bottom of the external box and two 2" 'through' bulkheads connecting both boxes through the back wall of the tank.

How far down from the top of the glass does the bulkhead / hole have to be?
 
The site you noted also has a detailed discussion on dry versus trickle emergency. I run mine with a trickle, not because I misunderstand but because I choose to do it that way. Is keeping it dry better - absolutely. Does a trickle portend the apocalypse - absolutely not. So do it whichever way makes sense to you, just be cognizant of the tradeoffs. FWIW, on my next tank I'm running a ghost with a 3 drain system where there is no good reason to let the emergency ever get wet ..... well, unless there's an emergency.

Didn't know you could do it that way as well. I've only seen it done by having a small amount of water going through the emergency. I'll have to check that out.

Thanks
 
No, the emergency drain does not set the water height in the overflow box. The emergency, more properly called "DRY emergency" should not have anything to do with the water. E.G. it is DRY!

The emergency drain determines the maximum water height. regardless if you trickle or not, water must never go above the height of the emergency pipe in a properly configured herbie.
 
The emergency drain determines the maximum water height. regardless if you trickle or not, water must never go above the height of the emergency pipe in a properly configured herbie.

Yeah I was kinda thinking of it like that. If the water is trickling down the emergency pipe then then the height of the pipe will be the level of the water roughly.
 
How far down from the top of the glass does the bulkhead / hole have to be?

whenever you drill a hole in a tank there should be at least one hole diameter's distance between edges (either hole to hole, or between the edge of the hole and the edge of the glass panel.)

Regarding the wet vs dry Herbie design. The original Herbie description had the emergency set up to be dry. Many since then have started running a trickle down the emergency. This makes adjustment easier but doing so means that by design, the siphon drain cannot handle the entire water flow. If the emergency (trickle) pipe should get clogged then you will have a flood. You have to decide for yourself what the risk of that is and whether you are willing to take that risk.
 
whenever you drill a hole in a tank there should be at least one hole diameter's distance between edges (either hole to hole, or between the edge of the hole and the edge of the glass panel.)

Regarding the wet vs dry Herbie design. The original Herbie description had the emergency set up to be dry. Many since then have started running a trickle down the emergency. This makes adjustment easier but doing so means that by design, the siphon drain cannot handle the entire water flow. If the emergency (trickle) pipe should get clogged then you will have a flood. You have to decide for yourself what the risk of that is and whether you are willing to take that risk.

The original Herbie design in almost all cases, and acknowledged by "Herbie" does not work. It simply is not possible to maintain a full siphon exactly balanced with the return water. The "emergency" I do not consider an emergency drain but the tuning/open channel for the full siphon. You could, however, use it as an "emergency" drain simply by running a larger pipe diameter than the main siphon drain or cranking back the siphon rate of the full siphon. In both cases the open channel will be able to outflow the main siphon and take over in the event of failure. However, using this will also cause the drain to "flush" since the system will not be balanced based on the open channel's potential flow rate when it turns into a full siphon. It will, however, still be able to adequately keep the tank drained and running, albeit noisily.

These style drains (Herbie/Bean) should not be used in place of good sump design that includes flood control. What drains down should not flood the sump in the case of pump failure and what is pumped up should not flood the tank in cases of drain failure.
 
The original Herbie design in almost all cases, and acknowledged by "Herbie" does not work. It simply is not possible to maintain a full siphon exactly balanced with the return water. The "emergency" I do not consider an emergency drain but the tuning/open channel for the full siphon. You could, however, use it as an "emergency" drain simply by running a larger pipe diameter than the main siphon drain or cranking back the siphon rate of the full siphon. In both cases the open channel will be able to outflow the main siphon and take over in the event of failure. However, using this will also cause the drain to "flush" since the system will not be balanced based on the open channel's potential flow rate when it turns into a full siphon. It will, however, still be able to adequately keep the tank drained and running, albeit noisily.

These style drains (Herbie/Bean) should not be used in place of good sump design that includes flood control. What drains down should not flood the sump in the case of pump failure and what is pumped up should not flood the tank in cases of drain failure.

Unless the "Trickle drain" plugs. What are the odds? 100% for Bean, 1 in 250 for me. (siphon and open channel failure at the same time) 5 in 250 for me (single pipe failures.) All with meticulous routine maintenance I might add. IT is an unacceptable risk, as is running a pump dry to prevent a flood. I have just been dealing with these things for a very long time, and there are far better ways to manage these things.
 
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The original Herbie design in almost all cases, and acknowledged by "Herbie" does not work. It simply is not possible to maintain a full siphon exactly balanced with the return water. The "emergency" I do not consider an emergency drain but the tuning/open channel for the full siphon. You could, however, use it as an "emergency" drain simply by running a larger pipe diameter than the main siphon drain or cranking back the siphon rate of the full siphon. In both cases the open channel will be able to outflow the main siphon and take over in the event of failure. However, using this will also cause the drain to "flush" since the system will not be balanced based on the open channel's potential flow rate when it turns into a full siphon. It will, however, still be able to adequately keep the tank drained and running, albeit noisily.

These style drains (Herbie/Bean) should not be used in place of good sump design that includes flood control. What drains down should not flood the sump in the case of pump failure and what is pumped up should not flood the tank in cases of drain failure.

Herbie's original design was used in a corner flow tank, IIRC, meaning you could have a large vertical distance between the siphon inlet and the emergency pipe. The additional head pressure generated by a the higher water level would help to auto regulate the system. Somewhat. Like you said, they tend no to be great at auto regulating and require frequent tinkering unless you decide to go the 'wet' herbie route, which is what most people end up doing.
 
I do think, ideally, the 'emergency' would be larger than the siphon; but most mass market tanks don't offer this. I suppose one could over drill one of the holes in the overflow as long as the bottom wasn't tempered. Probably the most practical alternative is to upsize the pipe above the bulkhead. I also think it's a good idea to have the mouth of the pipe at least a few inches below the teeth of the weir so that enough head pressure can build up in the event the siphon gets completely blocked.
 
Herbie's original design was used in a corner flow tank, IIRC, meaning you could have a large vertical distance between the siphon inlet and the emergency pipe. The additional head pressure generated by a the higher water level would help to auto regulate the system. Somewhat. Like you said, they tend no to be great at auto regulating and require frequent tinkering unless you decide to go the 'wet' herbie route, which is what most people end up doing.

This is why I still like in-tank overflows with holes in the bottom. Yes, you lose some tank space, but you gain some flexibility since you can get a siphon started easier and don't have to be quite as precise with the adjustments, given the larger vertical space available. Plus, since that's still the way most "reef ready" tanks still come, it's nice to have overflow plumbing methods that work well with that design, versus methods that require a different approach. That said, the last herbie I ran was on an overflow through the back with very little room. I was able to dial the flow on the siphon well enough that it went a few years with zero "tinkering." IME, a lot of reefer "tinkering" is self-inflicted. Once things are dialed in, there shouldn't need to be adjustments.

I do think, ideally, the 'emergency' would be larger than the siphon; but most mass market tanks don't offer this.

If you have two holes of identical size, and use one for a siphon with a gate valve that's partially closed in order to regulate flow, and have the other as a straight shot with no restrictions as the emergency overflow, then essentially your emergency is "larger" than the siphon, since it doesn't have a partially closed gate valve on it - even though the bulkheads are the same size. As long as that emergency drain can operate under siphon without sucking air, you've got excess capacity in your emergency compared to the primary siphon. That's why, IMHO, it's OK to run a "wet" herbie, since the small trickle in the emergency is likely not going to cause a big enough loss of capacity that the full flow can't be handled.

The good news with all of this is that it's really easy to learn in a hands-on manner. IMHO, the biggest mistake you can make is to take a formulaic approach and build something you don't understand. There are LOTS of ways to run a reef tank, drain plumbing included. Building something you don't understand is risky. Instead, I think it's better to get your hands wet (literally). If you're trying to build something that can handle an emergency, simulate an emergency and see what happens. Block off your siphon with a rag and see what happens. Unplug the pump, then plug it back in 10 seconds later before the tank has drained down. Then do it again, but let the tank drain down fully this time. Then unplug the pump and plug it back in with the rag blocking the siphon, and see if the emergency can pull a full siphon from scratch. Think up any possible scenario, then test it, and adjust if you feel you don't like the result.
 
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