house hold ammonia to kick start a nitrogen cycle

[keithhays]

I respectfully disagree. Once even one dose has been converted, you have a biofilter capable of sustaining life. Maybe not much to start with, but it is there and will grow as you add livestock.

As long as you put that very significant caveat on it, I will agree. That being not much to start with which I believe I also stated. The point is however why would you hamstring yourself with a less than optimal biofilter just to get the fish in the tank quicker. If one is going to cycle and wait anyway, go ahead an do it big, get the bang for the buck so to speak from all the time and effort.

I have to put a huge caveat as well, your QT timing better be spot on and two the rest of the filtration aspects better be in place or you are better off adding a fish at time very slowly.

 

[keithhays]

I think that's fairly thin reasoning for a 3 ppm level, but it won't do any harm. In my opinion, f you want to add a large number of fish, the safest way would be to start feeding the tank enough food for the horde before adding them, or something fairly close to it. These are living systems, and they don't lend themselves to simple formulae.

I would agree with this in general. But, it is hard to measure in the beginning exactly what is happening, so as you may have seen in other post, I go through the normal cycling with ammonia, my numbers go much higher than I would tell anyone else to do which makes the whole process take longer, but afterward in order to test that the rest of my system is going to function, i will and am feeding my tank the equivalent of what I think all the food that will go into the tank as if it were full of fish. This will tell me where the weak points are before I risk loosing a lot of animals..and as a byproduct I am able to do testing with a full size system that would be difficult or impossible once the fish are in the system.

I should also say that when I encounter someone using a particular product such as Dr. Tim's one-and-only, I will stay as closely as possible to the instructions with that product which in this case is to dose to 3ppm and to not go over 5ppm. I figure people are buying that particular product and want to evaluate it based on the instructions given. The strange thing I notice is how many people buy the product, but then don't go back to look at the instructions and guidelines given by the vendor on its use. This is why you will see my giving the 3ppm advice most of the time as it is becoming sort of dominate in the area of bacterial additions.

 

[ReefTeacher]

Jimmy,

Fish do excrete ammonia directly from their gills, but the solid waste that comes out their...errrr.....pore?.....that is more complex. It contains partially digested food, mucus, discarded tissue and blood cells from normal metabolism. You need to grow bacterial colonies that break down these more complex wastes as well. Some of these will end up as ammonia and the normal cycle we talk about will take over. But it is far from clear to me that all will. We need to develope many strains of bacteria to take care of the chemical soup of excretion. This is why I think fish food is a better way to artificially cycle than simple Ammonium hydroxide.

 

[ReefTeacher]

equilibrium

equilibrium

Let's also not forget that our tanks have a basic pH. Given that the ammonium ion has a tendency to loose its proton and become ammonia:

NH4+ -> NH3

Ammonia is a gas and is fairly soluble in water, but the solubility decreases with increasing pH. So some of the ammonia....even from ammonium chloride, can be lost to the air. This is why you can smell ammonia in a cleaning solution; some is escaping. So a one time dose that dissapears over the course of a week would give me very little confidence in an adequate biofilter! :hmm1:

 

[jimmy frag]

Jimmy,

Fish do excrete ammonia directly from their gills, but the solid waste that comes out their...errrr.....pore?.....that is more complex. It contains partially digested food, mucus, discarded tissue and blood cells from normal metabolism. You need to grow bacterial colonies that break down these more complex wastes as well. Some of these will end up as ammonia and the normal cycle we talk about will take over. But it is far from clear to me that all will. We need to develope many strains of bacteria to take care of the chemical soup of excretion. This is why I think fish food is a better way to artificially cycle than simple Ammonium hydroxide.

not trying to split hairs here but to suggest fish food is needed to add the extra speacial strains of bacteria to break down "more complex wastes" is streching it a little. these bacterias are already in the fish poop much like ours. its already breaking down before it leaves the butt. isnt this why we are taught to wash our hand and not lick our fingers after a dump ?????

 

[frog.pauley]

wow coffee all over the desk! lol

 

[ReefTeacher]

Jimmy,

I do not think this is the case. At least in the case of humans, the bacteria in our guts are mostly anaerobes. The strains we want to cultivate in our tanks are more likely aerobic. Aerobic bacteria use oxygen as an electron receptor (like we do) and expire CO2 for the most part. The anaerobes in our gut can use sulfur as an electron receptor and expire H2S.....that poopy smell! I am not sure exactly what strains of bacteria are in the guts of the fish we keep, I would be willing to bet they they probably are different from the ones developed in a cycle on the live rock in our tanks....the environment is just too different. This is all quite hypothetical of course, but I have seen this in tanks for almost 40 years now!

 

[disc1]

Jimmy,

I do not think this is the case. At least in the case of humans, the bacteria in our guts are mostly anaerobes. The strains we want to cultivate in our tanks are more likely aerobic. Aerobic bacteria use oxygen as an electron receptor (like we do) and expire CO2 for the most part. The anaerobes in our gut can use sulfur as an electron receptor and expire H2S.....that poopy smell! I am not sure exactly what strains of bacteria are in the guts of the fish we keep, I would be willing to bet they they probably are different from the ones developed in a cycle on the live rock in our tanks....the environment is just too different. This is all quite hypothetical of course, but I have seen this in tanks for almost 40 years now!

Some of the bacteria in our guts is anaerobic, like clostridium. Most are facultative aerobes like E. coli and do perfectly fine in either environment.

 

[jimmy frag]

Jimmy,

I do not think this is the case. At least in the case of humans, the bacteria in our guts are mostly anaerobes. The strains we want to cultivate in our tanks are more likely aerobic. Aerobic bacteria use oxygen as an electron receptor (like we do) and expire CO2 for the most part. The anaerobes in our gut can use sulfur as an electron receptor and expire H2S.....that poopy smell! I am not sure exactly what strains of bacteria are in the guts of the fish we keep, I would be willing to bet they they probably are different from the ones developed in a cycle on the live rock in our tanks....the environment is just too different. This is all quite hypothetical of course, but I have seen this in tanks for almost 40 years now!

so really if we were to take a fish and freeze dry it, grind it up, add coloring and garlic, sprinkle it in our new tank. then and only then will we get this "Aerobic bacteria" that you say we cant get any other way.

 

[disc1]

so really if we were to take a fish and freeze dry it, grind it up, add coloring and garlic, sprinkle it in our new tank. then and only then will we get this "Aerobic bacteria" that you say we cant get any other way.

Nah. Most are ubiquitous in nature and will find their way into your tank with or without your help.

 

[jimmy frag]

:thumbsup::beer:

Nah. Most are ubiquitous in nature and will find their way into your tank with or without your help.

 

[reefgeezer]

:thumbsup::beer:

+2

I think the population of the bacteria we are culturing varies with the concentration of ammonium. @ 3ppm I think we might culture a given number. Once that number is established. I don't think raising the level to 3 ppm again will develop any more bacteria. So adding another dose should not be necessary. If you want to add a second dose just to check the system, I see no problem with that. I would suggest that adding something to maintain some ammonium input (a little flake food or a little ammonium chloride, or a little liquid ammonia, or some fish - doesn't matter) would be prudent. This will keep the bacteria level elevated while other bacteria develop due to the elevated nitrite levels.

 

[ReefTeacher]

so really if we were to take a fish and freeze dry it, grind it up, add coloring and garlic, sprinkle it in our new tank. then and only then will we get this "Aerobic bacteria" that you say we cant get any other way.

I fail to follow your logic. I think we get the aerobic bacteria because they are airborne. Did I imply they came from somewhere else? The fish just supply the waste that certain strains thrive on. It is the complex nature of the waste that I was discussing....as opposed to chemically pure ammonia/ammonium ion.

 

[jimmy frag]

i would think by being a teacher you would get it, which im sure you do but you choose to talk circles