How I got my "DEAD" tank to cycle in 1 week

[Greenmaster]

Okay then I have a question. How many PPM in a 400g system would you say needed to be gone in 24 hours? I can then do the math and add the appropriate amount. And settle the debate.
From Feb 9th at 7:30pm to Feb 10th at 8:30 am a time frame of 13 hours the ammonia dropped approximately 2.5ppm

Also I just have to say I enjoy debating...

Great minds always bring forth the truth no mater what side they are on.

 

[geaux xman]

thats equivalent to roughly 10ppm ammonia in a 100g system.

thats a lot of ammonia processed over 13hrs.

 

[CJO]

i think you mis-read, no one mentioned anything about taking a week to process the ammonia once cycled.

He started on February 6th by adding ammonia and it took until February 10th until there wasn't a measurable amount, which is close to a week.

thats equivalent to roughly 10ppm ammonia in a 100g system.

thats a lot of ammonia processed over 13hrs.

Or 40ppm in a 25 gallon system.. not sure of your point?

I think that, adding the appropriate amount of ammonia that corresponds with a medium to heavy fishload and seeing if it is converted to nitirite within a few (say 3?) hours would be a great test. I just have no idea of what that amount might be

CJ

 

[HighlandReefer]

When one claims a tank has cycled, this is a very vague word with many possible meanings to different hobbyists.

The bacterial species in a reef tank will most likely change as the conditions in the tank change. For example if the nitrate level is allowed to change, so can the bacterial populations, since some bacterial are more adapt at processing it than others. If the phosphate levels change, so too can the bacterial populations.

There are other waste products formed and added to a reef tank when you begin to feed the tank, add fish and other organisms than just ammonia. It does take time for these other bacteria (and other micro-organisms) to develop in enough numbers to process all the different chemicals present in a reef tank to keep everything in harmony.

Don't forget that the air surrounding your tank will add countless other species of bacteria, diatoms, ....etc. As these new airborne species are added to the tank water, population changes will occur. Adding fish, coral...etc will also add more life forms. In this sense, a tank will never stop cycling.

It appears that Greenmaster's tank can process some ammonia and how sufficient this will be time can only tell. I would start with just one fish and gradually increase the numbers as well as other occupants to give time for the tank system to adapt. Monitor your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate levels to make sure they remain within the recommend ranges. If not, take appropriate actions.

 

[reefsforme]

Who said your finished cycling?!? Just because your parameters are okay, according to your test kits, doesn't mean its cycled. The tank is cycled, after a few months of running, with gets the bacteria to grow and flourish throughout the aquarium. Just because parameters aren't dectable to your test kits, doesn't mean it's not there. So, in reality, you got a while to go. It would be a miracle if all that beneficial bacteria that takes months to grow, just grew in two weeks.

 

[bertoni]

You could try spiking the ammonia to 2 ppm, and see how many hours it takes to hit zero. That'd be an interesting test, IMO.

 

[bleedfire]

HEY! i like your VIDEOS help me alot with the rocks Thanks agian

 

[Greenmaster]

HEY! i like your VIDEOS help me alot with the rocks Thanks agian

You bet.

 

[Greenmaster]

You could try spiking the ammonia to 2 ppm, and see how many hours it takes to hit zero. That'd be an interesting test, IMO.

That would be about 20ml I'll put a tablespoon in and see where that puts me.

 

[Greenmaster]

He started on February 6th by adding ammonia and it took until February 10th until there wasn't a measurable amount, which is close to a week.



Or 40ppm in a 25 gallon system.. not sure of your point?

I think that, adding the appropriate amount of ammonia that corresponds with a medium to heavy fishload and seeing if it is converted to nitirite within a few (say 3?) hours would be a great test. I just have no idea of what that amount might be

CJ

ummm 4 days I wouldn't call close to a week but okay...

The point is if you would add 2 fish in a 25 gallon system that could deal with 2.5 ppm in 13 hours then my tank by that ratio would be 32 fish... just to put it into perspective.

That would be a good question... how much ammonia does an average 2-3" fish with 1 heavy feeding per day produce in 24 hours?

 

[Greenmaster]

When one claims a tank has cycled, this is a very vague word with many possible meanings to different hobbyists.

The bacterial species in a reef tank will most likely change as the conditions in the tank change. For example if the nitrate level is allowed to change, so can the bacterial populations, since some bacterial are more adapt at processing it than others. If the phosphate levels change, so too can the bacterial populations.

There are other waste products formed and added to a reef tank when you begin to feed the tank, add fish and other organisms than just ammonia. It does take time for these other bacteria (and other micro-organisms) to develop in enough numbers to process all the different chemicals present in a reef tank to keep everything in harmony.

Don't forget that the air surrounding your tank will add countless other species of bacteria, diatoms, ....etc. As these new airborne species are added to the tank water, population changes will occur. Adding fish, coral...etc will also add more life forms. In this sense, a tank will never stop cycling.

It appears that Greenmaster's tank can process some ammonia and how sufficient this will be time can only tell. I would start with just one fish and gradually increase the numbers as well as other occupants to give time for the tank system to adapt. Monitor your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate levels to make sure they remain within the recommend ranges. If not, take appropriate actions.

I agree with the first four paragraphs of your statement. You have a lot of good information in there.

Some ammonia... in 13 hours it was able to process 2.8ml (0.09 fl oz) of pure ammonia. I agree that if I had a small tank like a 30g tank I would start with 1-2 fish... but with a 300g tank that is equivalent to 10-20 fish... Many people do fish in cycles... where they add 2-4 fish to a 30g tank... I don't agree with them but it is done... in a couple that I have see on the net in the last little while their tank was producing between .25-1ppm and that works out to about .03-.12 ml a day of pure ammonia. Taking that result it shows that my tank is cycled for ammonia production of approximately 40-80 small fish... I realize that these numbers are approximate and this is simplified number crunching... I feel that it is slightly ridiculous that you would suggest that I should start with one fish and add slowly "to give time for the tank system to adapt". The point of cycling is to adapt the tank to the fish prior to the fish being introduced, so as to avoid undue stress of the tank taking time to adapt. I am aware that there are other things that the system will need to adapt for, but the ammonia is the most important and harmful. I am planning on implementing schools of fish... to do that you need to add the fish all at the same time (for best chance of schooling) If I add one fish at a time it would take forever and they would be more likely to scatter or form many small schools. On the other hand if I were to introduce the singles/pairs first, then when it was time to add the schools the bacteria would not be present to handle it so I could get an ammonia spike and possibly kill the whole system. The idea of adding slowly and letting the system adapt is the same as fish cycling. You add a fish or two and let the bacteria develop, you then add another fish or two and the bacteria can develop faster because you have a larger population of bacteria... since bacteria reproduce by splitting, the larger base line you have the faster it grows. You add a new fish where there isn't sufficient bacteria to deal with the bioload, then your system adapts. You have lost of really good suggestions and you have provided a wealth of important information. Thanks.

 

[Greenmaster]

Just a note... I'm not planning on introducing any fish until I get my apex controller... I don't want to risk turning my lights on again without it. So you will have no worries about me throwing a bunch of fish in right at this second... but the first fish I add will probably be a small school of 10-30 fish... (not sure what ones yet... still trying to decide)

Also I will be doing the ammonia test tomorrow morning so I can monitor the the ammonia as it drops... and give the most detailed information possible.

 

[Rocdoc]

Just a note... I'm not planning on introducing any fish until I get my apex controller... I don't want to risk turning my lights on again without it. So you will have no worries about me throwing a bunch of fish in right at this second... but the first fish I add will probably be a small school of 10-30 fish... (not sure what ones yet... still trying to decide)

Also I will be doing the ammonia test tomorrow morning so I can monitor the the ammonia as it drops... and give the most detailed information possible.

When will you be getting your apex controller?

You have this billed as a way to rapidly cycle an aquarium, but with the exception of adding ammonia to it, you have no proof that the system is ready to handle fish. By waiting, you allow the aquarium more time to actually cycle with introduction of airborne contaminants and bacteria, adding biodiversity to your aquarium. If it takes a few weeks to get your Apex, your tank will have had enough time to complete a more typical cycle. If you successfully introduce fish at that time, we will have no idea whether your "rapid cycle" did anything.

In the meantime, someone could read this post, do exactly the same steps you did, and then dump 10-30 fish in their aquarium at the end of the week, causing massive die off.

Irresponsible.

 

[Greenmaster]

When will you be getting your apex controller?

You have this billed as a way to rapidly cycle an aquarium, but with the exception of adding ammonia to it, you have no proof that the system is ready to handle fish. By waiting, you allow the aquarium more time to actually cycle with introduction of airborne contaminants and bacteria, adding biodiversity to your aquarium. If it takes a few weeks to get your Apex, your tank will have had enough time to complete a more typical cycle. If you successfully introduce fish at that time, we will have no idea whether your "rapid cycle" did anything.

In the meantime, someone could read this post, do exactly the same steps you did, and then dump 10-30 fish in their aquarium at the end of the week, causing massive die off.

Irresponsible.

Umm... if they do exactly the same steps I did, in a 320g tank and 100g sump with the same volume of sand/rocks/rings/stars/pellets and gets the same result then when they dump the 10-30 small fish in they will do fine. But if they try and do this with a 30g system and manage to cycle in a week and add 1-3 fish again I say the fish will do fine. You just need to make sure that the tank can handle the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, with nitrate not being as important in many systems.

About the bio diversity thing... yes there will be some minor introduction of bacteria... I mean all my rock and sand had some type of bacteria/spores who knows what all was there prior to even being filled with water... and it sat there for months that way... I believe that the biodiversity thing and the two weeks or however long, you think it will take for something that will grow with the same "food" that was used for the cycle, is your opinion and has no basis on fact, but whatever.

 

[endlessblue]

I'd take your time just to be on the safe side, but maybe your right. You sure have done a lot of work here and thats the most important thing in this hobby!!

 

[Greenmaster]

You have this billed as a way to rapidly cycle an aquarium, but with the exception of adding ammonia to it, you have no proof that the system is ready to handle fish.

umm... what usually kills fish when you add them to a un-cycled aquarium? Could it be ammonia/nitrite? not all the time... some times it is the pH that gets them... but other then that I'm not sure what else you are talking about.

 

[Greenmaster]

I'd take your time just to be on the safe side, but maybe your right. You sure have done a lot of work here and thats the most important thing in this hobby!!

Ya this is in no means an easy way out... I believe that the fact that it cycled faster means that it will have more headroom for bioload. I believe that this tank is ready for fish and if I had the fish I would add them at this point. But since I don't it gives me more time for experimentation. I made this thread based on someones advice that I share this leap forward in cycling time's as it could be a benefit to the hobby. But I do understand that change is hard for anyone no matter what the facts are.

 

[Rocdoc]

My point is that you are asserting that your aquarium is ready to handle a large bioload, but you have no intention of testing that assertion. It is irresponsible for you to post this as some "miracle" rapid curing method that others may follow. Thanks for taking the time to explain to me about the ammonia/nitrite issue being a problem with a newly cycling tank. First time I've ever heard of either. Sheesh.

You talk about "research" and such, but you've done nothing like it. I'm not saying that your aquarium can't process ammonia. I'm just concerned when one person comes up with something that no one else seems to be able to successfully do, publishes it as a reasonable alternative to the time-tested methods that thousands of bright people have come up with, but has nothing to show it's safe except that it can process a capful of ammonia.

And the Umm. . . before each of your posts and your generally condescending tone is ridiculous. We're not schoolchildren. We're just concerned hobbyists and in some cases scientists who don't necessarily agree with your assertions. We're urging caution and being met with ridicule.

I hope your tank does well. I find it unfortunate that unless your apex is here in the next day or two and you successfully introduce the schools of fish you allege your tank can handle, we won't know if your method works. I'd hate to have other hobbyists follow your steps and lose livestock for a method that you haven't proven.

/rant

 

[Greenmaster]

My point is that you are asserting that your aquarium is ready to handle a large bioload, but you have no intention of testing that assertion. It is irresponsible for you to post this as some "miracle" rapid curing method that others may follow. Thanks for taking the time to explain to me about the ammonia/nitrite issue being a problem with a newly cycling tank. First time I've ever heard of either. Sheesh.

I'm not saying it's a miracle. I'm saying it's ready... and the reason I felt the need to explain to you about the ammonia being the main issue is you keep saying the tank isn't ready... saying it needs to mature... what are you expecting to happen that hasn't already? And I don't see where I have said I'm not going to test my method?

You talk about "research" and such, but you've done nothing like it. I'm not saying that your aquarium can't process ammonia. I'm just concerned when one person comes up with something that no one else seems to be able to successfully do, publishes it as a reasonable alternative to the time-tested methods that thousands of bright people have come up with, but has nothing to show it's safe except that it can process a capful of ammonia.

I think you need to look up the word research... and again you talk about change as though it is a bad thing... just to let you know again, the whole point of a cycle is to get the bacteria to a point where it can process ammonia. What about it is not safe? What are you saying could happen if fish were added? I'm lost on this one.

And the Umm. . . before each of your posts and your generally condescending tone is ridiculous. We're not schoolchildren. We're just concerned hobbyists and in some cases scientists who don't necessarily agree with your assertions. We're urging caution and being met with ridicule.

I'm sorry about being condescending bertoni. The question that really got me going was "How do you know any of that?" the question to me was not a question, so much as, an insult. The statement he quoted had an answer in it, that validated some of it's self. The test results validated the rest. I realize that none of this is "proof" so much as "verifying a theory", but when I use absolutes I am fairly certain I can't be proved wrong. I'm not always condescending in my reply either. If a valid statement is made or an honest question ("How do you know any of that?" could have been one) then I feel I can answer in a pleasing manner and/or continue to have a civil debate. bertoni had some good points and he offered a suggestion on how I could help him to see the results in the same light as me. You on the other had have just been against me from the start telling me my results are useless and I'll kill my fish because you have never heard of it before. Then again you go on to say that my results are useless and that my research is useless because I haven't finished it yet... and then you get into name calling because I'm going to do a test, recommended by bertoni, that you even seconded. I know that there are lots of people from all walks of life here, but I'm not being urged to be cautious I'm being told that what I have done is not possible and that it will kill fish. If any of you out there can tell me how it is supposed to kill fish I would like to know. Other then the fact that it may not be able to handle the ammonia as that question has been asked and the test is being done in the morning. To help satisfy at least some of the people asking that question.

I hope your tank does well. I find it unfortunate that unless your apex is here in the next day or two and you successfully introduce the schools of fish you allege your tank can handle, we won't know if your method works. I'd hate to have other hobbyists follow your steps and lose livestock for a method that you haven't proven.

Thanks for the wishes that my tank will do well. I believe that even if I did add a bunch of fish right away that you would say that I did something wrong and it's a one off. The only way for something like this to be "proven" is for many people to have success with it. Like with any way you start-up you can have problems and some will say it's this method, but without lots of people trying it with similar methods there is no way for it to be proven to you. As for me? I am fairly certain that this has worked. I overlooked the dosing of ammonia again to "validate" my setup as it was good enough for me and I was going to shut it down till I got my apex and was ready to order my fish/inverts. I was doing this test not to see if I could cycle in less then a week, I did the test to see how well the tank could handle the bio load (the ammonia portion anyways). Once I saw how well it worked I told a friend and he said that it was too good to keep to myself. So I am here spreading the word and offering to help someone else try it and hopefully get the same (or better) results.

I have a question for you Rocdoc.
What would I need to do at this point to help you to have a little faith that this works? That my system can handle a group of say 30 fish and 20-30 inverts (mostly CUC small snails and hermit crabs) after only 1 week to cycle?
I plan on getting the Apex either in March or April and adding my fish/inverts in April some time.

 

[Rocdoc]

Hard to even know how to start to respond to that, but I'll give it a shot.

I have not been against you from the beginning. I asked honest questions. You indicated in the original post that part of the reason for your rapid cycle was the large amount of homemade "live rock" you used, and I didn't understand your use of the term, since it certainly wasn't live. Then I stated my concern about your assertion that your new tank's ability to process some ammonia meant it was fully cycled. Your thread title indicates that you feel the tank went from nothing to fully cycled in one week. I asked for more information because I didn't understand how that could be. I asked if I was missing something.

You then stated I had missed the fact that you added an off-the-shelf bacterial supplement and ammonia. I certainly didn't "miss" that and found it insulting that you would insinuate that I somehow got lost in your very "complex" scheme; get a dead tank with dead rock, add some ammonia and bacteria, then test the heck out of it.

You keep asserting that the tank is "ready" but have no plans to test that except to put more ammonia in the tank and see what happens. You've already established that the bacteria you have established can process ammonia. Adding objective data points with an ammonia load tomorrow will further quantify the amount of ammonia your tank can process, but it does not prove your assertions, namely that the tank is fully cycled and ready for 20-30 fish. The only way to prove these theories is to add 20-30 fish and continue to measure all your parameters.

I need to look up the word "research?" Really? It may surprise you to know that I have a fair amount of experience with research. I happen to know that the lowest level of evidence is anecdotal. That is where someone says, "Hey, I did this once and it worked for me." That is the best you could hope for with your current "research" methods. Where is the randomized control trial?

I am not against change. I was stunned when I got back into saltwater aquaria after 20 years that nothing I learned before meant anything. Undergravel filter? Gone! Damsels to cycle? Passé! SPS coral impossible to keep? Debunked! The hobby continues to grow by leaps and bounds. I am not afraid of change. I am afraid of someone who posts that his tank is "cycled" after one week and has no real evidence to back that up.

Are your ideas revolutionary? Well, let's see, you bought a couple of pre-packaged bottles of bacteria off the shelves of your local fish stores. Seems that since there are several brands of bottled bacteria, you're not the first to come up with the idea of using it. Adding ammonia to the tank to begin a cycle? It's been done before. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the fact that you were able to get your parameters to zero in a week. I'm just frustrated that you talk about your "results" and your cycled tank, but are unable to prove the results. I haven't said that what you claim is not possible, only that it is completely unproven and it appears it will stay that way.

In short, Greenmaster, there is nothing you can do at this point to prove that your "system" works. If you went out and put 30 fish in your tank tomorrow and they did well, it would give more evidence that your ideas were not completely off base. However, in research, an N of one is never statistically significant. I would not immediately discount your work, but I would not use this method on my next tank, either. I would wait for other people to try it and have success. As the number of successful trials increases, so does the significance of the research.

On the other hand, what if you added 30 fish to the tank tomorrow and they all died? Would that mean that nothing you have done worked and that the whole method is flawed? No. It would be in keeping with the experience of many other reefers who went too far to fast, but it would really not prove anything. Again, the N of one is not significant.

Alas, however, there will be no proving of your methods with this build. You will introduce a CUC 2-3 months after setting up your tank (far longer than most people wait) and we will be left with a thread that says, "I took my tank from dead to fully cycled in one week" and absolutely no evidence to back it up.

One other thing that I am curious about: Why the rush to cycle the tank when you aren't introducing any livestock for a couple of months? You could have gone with more traditional methods and your tank would have fully cycled by the time you started to stock it.

I wish you the best. I have not called you names and I do not intend to do so now. I apologize if this thread has gotten under my skin more than most. It was not my intention to be rude.