How long do i have to wait!

[wooden_reefer]

Actually, corals do not need fish. It is really good for corals for a reef tank to be fishless. But the aquarist want to see fish. I do. Without fish a reef tank just doesn't look good.

Actually, the remedy that I suggest allows one to get fish first, but why?

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722500#post15722500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toddrtrex
[B
Where is the ick coming from if there is no fish in the tank? [/B]

From any water that may contain ich.

Particularily, you get corals from your LFS. Do you see fish with corals in LFS? I do often.

Even if there is no fish in the coral tank (or system) of your LFS, can you be sure that the corals have been without fish for eight or more weeks, in the wholesaler or the LFS? NO

Any LFS or unknown water is an ich hazard.

We are talking about adding corals to a tank full of fish. Where do the corals come from? Your LFS for the most part.

 

[Toddrtrex]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722522#post15722522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
Actually, corals do not need fish. It is really good for corals for a reef tank to be fishless. But the aquarist want to see fish. I do. Without fish a reef tank just doesn't look good.

Actually, the remedy that I suggest allows one to get fish first, but why?

Then how come people with no or low amounts of fish (( read bio-load )) that keep SPS have issues keeping them, mainly coral and slow growth see an improvement with they add fish?

A lot of SPS will feed off the wastes generate by fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722548#post15722548 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toddrtrex

A lot of SPS will feed off the wastes generate by fish.

Why can't small crabs and shrimps do the same?

In general, most reef tank tend to have too much waste, I tend to think. More aquarists want to see more fish than fewer.

I also agree that one should not be too concerned about some waste, for reason you stated.

You don't have to worry about ich for a fishless reef tank.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"How many new reefers are good about testing and maintaining their Cal, Alk, and Mag levels"

Why would the presence of many fish ease the testing and maintaining ...?

 

[Toddrtrex]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722643#post15722643 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
"How many new reefers are good about testing and maintaining their Cal, Alk, and Mag levels"

Why would the presence of many fish ease the testing and maintaining ...?

It wouldn't, and I never said it would. But, putting in fish first --- and waiting to put in corals later -- would give the reefer time to learn the importance of that.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722664#post15722664 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toddrtrex
It wouldn't, and I never said it would. But, putting in fish first --- and waiting to put in corals later -- would give the reefer time to learn the importance of that.

One learns a lot by reading, thinking, and discussing.

Looking at fish is relaxing, and you can learn certain things, like behavior.

Many things in this hobby cannot be learned by watching alone.

 

[Toddrtrex]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722712#post15722712 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
One learns a lot by reading, thinking, and discussing.

Looking at fish is relaxing, and you can learn certain things, like behavior.

Many things in this hobby cannot be learned by watching alone.

Okay..... That really doesn't address what I said.

And now I am going to have to be done with this thread.

 

[jtrasap]

If Ich is at question, why not just keep the fish in the display, and lower salinity for 8-10 weeks, prior to adding some corals, instead of putting them through the stress of moving to a QT tank. It would take quite a QT tank for 8 fish. Probably more than someone new to the hobby would have laying around.

 

[wooden_reefer]

What does "really settled" mean for a tank?

I am not saying that there is no such a thing, but I think an aquarist should have a rough idea about what it is and is not.

I can say that adding fish slowly and allowing nitrification bacteria population to catch up should NEVER be a part of "really settled". Nitrification should be rock solid deliberately at the end of cycling, at least for a tank designed for rather high bioload, typically with many fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722733#post15722733 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
If Ich is at question, why not just keep the fish in the display, and lower salinity for 8-10 weeks, prior to adding some corals, instead of putting them through the stress of moving to a QT tank. It would take quite a QT tank for 8 fish. Probably more than someone new to the hobby would have laying around.

What is the source of the corals? The water that comes with the corals may contain ich. You should not leave corals in QT for eight weeks without proper lighting.

Not if you trade livestock with another aquarist, this is a fringe case.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I believe a part of "really settled" is for denitrification to be better established.

For this additional reason, it is better to basically have a fishless reef tank for a while until denitrification is better established before adding fish, I believe.

 

[Ken_wied]

Alot of good information here - Marina,
I think it would be wise to slow down a bit before dropping big money on corals that may die due to not fully understanding the care required for them. Nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. Also, just post back so we know you are paying attention to the thread

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722826#post15722826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ken_wied
Alot of good information here - Marina,
I think it would be wise to slow down a bit before dropping big money on corals that may die due to not fully understanding the care required for them. Nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. Also, just post back so we know you are paying attention to the thread

Probably good advice for beginners.

For the experienced, stocking quickly has its major advantages.

 

[jtrasap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722781#post15722781 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
What is the source of the corals? The water that comes with the corals may contain ich. You should not leave corals in QT for eight weeks without proper lighting.

Not if you trade livestock with another aquarist, this is a fringe case.

Regardless of the "source of the corals", the fish are already in this tank, without corals. Why stress them more than is necessary? If she wants to get some corals at this very moment, then she should quarantine them as it would be the much more sensible approach than relocating eight fish into a quarantine tank, going out and buying some corals and throwing them into the display, only to move the fish back a few weeks later. You saying not to stick the corals into a QT without proper lighting is only stating the obvious. That's like saying don't put them into a quarentine tank without saltwater.


As far as nitrification being rock solid at the end of "cycling", your tank will have a small cycle anytime you ad a fish. The bio-load changes, and the system has to compensate for that change. Eight fish within one month, is quite a few fish in quite a short time.


I think the question of the tank settling in is more of a question of the caretaker of the tank itself, as both go hand in hand.

 

[jtrasap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722850#post15722850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer

For the experienced, stocking quickly has its major advantages. [/B]

Wooden, can you elaborate on some "advantages" of stocking a tank quickly?

I really can't think of any, myself.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722853#post15722853 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
Regardless of the "source of the corals", the fish are already in this tank, without corals. Why stress them more than is necessary? If she wants to get some corals at this very moment, then she should quarantine them as it would be the much more sensible approach than relocating eight fish into a quarantine tank, going out and buying some corals and throwing them into the display, only to move the fish back a few weeks later. You saying not to stick the corals into a QT without proper lighting is only stating the obvious. That's like saying don't put them into a quarentine tank without saltwater.


As far as nitrification being rock solid at the end of "cycling", your tank will have a small cycle anytime you ad a fish. The bio-load changes, and the system has tom compensate for that change. Eight fish within one month, is quite a few fish in quite a short time.


I think the question of the tank settling in is more of a question of the caretaker of the tank settling in.

For the first part, the compelling thing about corals is the special lighting that they need and is typically available only in DT. I don't suggest eight weeks without proper lighting for corals. QT corals has such an inherent problem.

For the second part, no no no, you do not have a small cycle want you add fish. Go back to my question. How would you cycle a new tank for a ten inch queen angel? There should be and will be no ammonia for this ten inch fish whatsoever. Even ten such fish.

For bacteria population change according to bioload change, the process is rather slow, Three weeks at least.

Many LFS have wide differences in bioload for their tanks or systems. You will typically have at least a few weeks of low bioload before the bacterial population declines significantly.

Also, just think about a typical cycle. There will be typically 2-3 weeks when ammonia has been exhausted (nitrosomous max out) and nitrite peaked. The nitromoous for two-three weeks have little ammonia to feed on (while nitrobacter grow), yet they survive.

If an aquarist makes sure that the nitrification capacity is very high at the end of a cycle, there will be at least about a month (may be more) when the nitrification capacity remains very high without bioload.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722880#post15722880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
Wooden, can you elaborate on some "advantages" of stocking a tank quickly?

I really can't think of any, myself.

First is reduction of incompability among fish. The longer you wait the more entrenched is territorial behavior. This can be make or break.

Second is the ease of QT. I typically QT fish for eight weeks. If I buy fish one at a time, stocking just ten fish will take 80 weeks. NO, I get all that I want and get the process over with.

Third, you can typically get a better price if you get all/most at once.

This is risky business for the inexperienced. I don't recommend it NOT because of inadequate nitrification (very easy even for beginners) but for lack of skills to combat fish diseases systematically and situationally.

 

[jtrasap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15722947#post15722947 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
For the first part, the compelling thing about corals is the special lighting that they need and is typically available only in DT. I don't suggest eight weeks without proper lighting for corals. QT corals has such an inherent problem.

For the second part, no no no, you do not have a small cycle want you add fish. Go back to my question. How would you cycle a new tank for a ten inch queen angel? There should be and will be no ammonia for this ten inch fish whatsoever. Even ten such fish.

For bacteria population change according to bioload change, the process is rather slow, Three weeks at least.

Many LFS have wide differences in bioload for their tanks for systems. You will typically have at least a few weeks of low bioload before the bacterial population declines significantly.

Also, just think about a typical cycle. There will be typically 2-3 weeks when ammonia has been exhausted (nitrosomous max out) and nitrite peaked. The nitromoous for two-three weeks have little ammonia to feed on (while nitrobacter grow), yet they survive.

If an aquarist makes sure that the nitrification capacity is very high at the end of a cycle, there will be at least about a month (may be more) when the nitrification capacity remains very high without bioload.

The lighting can be wherever you put the lighting. Whether it's over the display or the QT....that's not at question here.


If you add 'EIGHT FISH' to a tank within it's first month of running, it is absolutely going to take time for it to catch up to the bio-load of those fish! In any environment, a population can only live at a level that it's resources will support. If nutrients aren't there to support a bacterial population, that population will be minimal. which is why we cycle a tank in the first place. Fish produce waste in many forms. Hypothetically speaking, if there is one fish in a tank, the waste from that one fish will only support a given population of bacteria. If you throw in 7 more fish, that population has to grow to the point that it can handle the waste output of the fish and any other waste in the tank.

As far as the bacterial population change taking "3 weeks at least", it would depend on a whole lot of factors, such as the bio-load of the tank, tank size, fish size, fish population, etc etc. Adding one Ten inch Angel would absolutely cause a small cycle, probably trace, if detectable at all, but it would be there. Eight fish, on the other hand, would probably be detectable. Not to mention, this tank is only a month old.

 

[SBGRAD24]

I think she's not responding because she doesn't like the answers she's getting. She did this in another thread last week, basically asking the same question and getting the same answer.