How long do i have to wait!

[jtrasap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723018#post15723018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
First is reduction of incompability among fish. The longer you wait the more entrenched is territorial behavior. This can be make or break.

Second is the ease of QT. I typically QT fish for eight weeks. If I buy fish one at a time, stocking just ten fish will take 80 weeks. NO, I get all that I want and get the process over with.

Third, you can typically get a better price if you get all/most at once.

This is risky business for the inexperienced. I don't recommend it NOT because of inadequate nitrification (very easy even for beginners) but for lack of skills to combat fish diseases systematically and situationally.

Compatibility issues will arise and needs to be considered whether stocking eight fish at once or one at a time. They will have to establish a "pecking order". Obviously there are times when certain fish should be introduced together. Nobody said anything about stocking one fish at a time, but, stocking ten fish in a 120 gallon tank at one time, is irresponsible and selfish, as it's definitely stressful to the fish. On the other hand, if you have a large system that can handle that size of a lump addition, more power to you. Obviously if you throw ten fish into a 1000 gallon tank, the toxicity will be minimized by dilution and would not compare to adding that load to a much smaller tank.


Price is a moot point, considering that it's the livestock at question here, and not your pocketbook.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723107#post15723107 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
The lighting can be wherever you put the lighting. Whether it's over the display or the QT....that's not at question here.


If you add 'EIGHT FISH' to a tank within it's first month of running, it is absolutely going to take time for it to catch up to the bio-load of those fish! In any environment, a population can only live at a level that it's resources will support. If nutrients aren't there to support a bacterial population, that population will be minimal. which is why we cycle a tank in the first place. Fish produce waste in many forms. Hypothetically speaking, if there is one fish in a tank, the waste from that one fish will only support a given population of bacteria. If you throw in 7 more fish, that population has to grow to the point that it can handle the waste output of the fish and any other waste in the tank.

As far as the bacterial population change taking "3 weeks at least", it would depend on a whole lot of factors, such as the bio-load of the tank, tank size, fish size, fish population, etc etc. Adding one Ten inch Angel would absolutely cause a small cycle, probably trace, if detectable at all, but it would be there. Eight fish, on the other hand, would probably be detectable. Not to mention, this tank is only a month old.

Won't your MH over heat the QT? Yes, you can buy smaller lightening for QT corals. I am not talking about absolute but typical.

The second part, I have already stated what will and will not happen with varying bioloads.

I have stated my reasons why nitrification capacity does not chance rapidly with varying bioload. And why high nitrification capacity at the conclusion of the cycle is so important.

If you don't believe me you can think about the great varying bioload of many dealors and LFS, and the typical cycle when for about two to three weeks the nitrosonomus have little ammonia to feed on and yet they survive.

Just try it or think more about it.

And, how would you cycle for a ten inch queen angel for a new tank? Must there be ammonia for a while? Can you tell me how you would do so?

The answer is no no no. There will be absolutely no ammonia. Ammonia even at low level is very bad for fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723155#post15723155 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
Compatibility issues will arise and needs to be considered whether stocking eight fish at once or one at a time. They will have to establish a "pecking order". Obviously there are times when certain fish should be introduced together. Nobody said anything about stocking one fish at a time, but, stocking ten fish in a 120 gallon tank at one time, is irresponsible and selfish, as it's definitely stressful to the fish. On the other hand, if you have a large system that can handle that size of a lump addition, more power to you. Obviously if you throw ten fish into a 1000 gallon tank, the toxicity will be minimized by dilution and would not compare to adding that load to a much smaller tank.


Price is a moot point, considering that it's the livestock at question here, and not your pocketbook.

Can you tell me how you would cycle for a new tank to house a ten-inch queen angel?

 

[wooden_reefer]

How do you cycle for a new tank intended to house a ten-inch queen angel fish?

I want to ask all those who are still believe in the absolute merit is stocking fish slowly.

I understand this is a newbie section, but I think that it is still good for newbies to know why he should stock fish slowly.

 

[jtrasap]

Regardless of the type of fish, the nitrogen cycle needs to be established.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723242#post15723242 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
Regardless of the type of fish, the nitrogen cycle needs to be established.

Yes, how do you establish the "nitrogen cycle" in cycling for a tank to house this ten-inch fish?

 

[dccr]

So what is still needed is the answers to the questions!!! Water perim, lighting, live rock and the rest.... Otherwise start a new post on this subject. Fish first / coral first JMO.

 

[jtrasap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723231#post15723231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer

I want to ask all those who are still believe in the absolute merit is stocking fish slowly.

I understand this is a newbie section, but I think that it is still good for newbies to know why he should stock fish slowly.

Not to say that you can't throw a bunch of fish in a tank at once, but if you have a small tank, it's going to be a shock to the system and to the fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

How would you take care of the bioload from one ten-inch queen angel with a newly cycled tank? That is what I want to ask.

I know how but I am asking to illustrate a point. It is in simliar way to take care of that from several medium sized fish.

So the way you cycle for one ten-inch queen angel is similar to the way you cycle to stock several medium size fish all at once.

What is so extraordinary about it?

Another question is are you confident about putting a ten-inch fish in a newly cycled tank? If so, why are you confident?

I am confident and I know why I am confident.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723275#post15723275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
Not to say that you can't throw a bunch of fish in a tank at once, but if you have a small tank, it's going to be a shock to the system and to the fish.

I would agree that too small a QT would create behavioral problems. A QT should be somewhat large.

I can generally get most or all the fish into QT because my QT is somewhat large (30 gals about) and most of the fish I get are small juv so at the time of purchase they are generally small.

Also, this is 2009. The nitrification capacity of a tank is not dictated so much by the size of the tank. A very simple setup can vastly enhance the nitrification capacity of a tank. Just put a perforated tray on top and allow water to drip down on mature filter medium is a good way.

What is "shock" then?

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723258#post15723258 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dccr
So what is still needed is the answers to the questions!!! Water perim, lighting, live rock and the rest.... Otherwise start a new post on this subject. Fish first / coral first JMO.

How do you make sure that the nitrification capacity for a new tank is enough to handle the bioload from this ten inch fish?

This is the question.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"Compatibility issues will arise and needs to be considered whether stocking eight fish at once or one at a time."

My experience is that , in general, the longer a potentially problem fish has been in a tank the more territorial it becomes. The sooner strangers contact the better the chance of solving incompatability.

Not absolute but typical.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I am stating the advantages of stocking fish quickly for the experienced not for the purposing of suggesting that the novice do so.

May be the novice should know the real reason to stock fish slowly at the expense of not having such advantages.

The reason why a novice should stock fish slowly is that the skills to handle diseases have not been acquired. The treatment of fish disease is a very major part of this hobby. This is also the implication.

The aquarist, even a beginner, can make sure that ammonia is never an issue. Nitrification is very easy and even a beginner should do it well.

 

[wooden_reefer]

How would you cycle for a ten inch queen angel? How do you make sure that the nitrification will be enough after cycling for a new tank for this fish?

Just think about it step by step how you would do so.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Also, what about QT ten fish?

It takes eight weeks to eradicate ich. So if one buy fish one at a time, it would take 80 weeks to QT ten fish.

Is this amount of patience and work expected?

I QT all or most fish in one or two batches to finish QT.

 

[jtrasap]

I'm sorry wooden, but I'm done replying to your jib-jab, as I can see that your nothing more than a thread troll, with the intent of muddying up a topic.

This is my last reply to you.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723619#post15723619 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
I'm sorry wooden, but I'm done replying to your jib-jab, as I can see that your nothing more than a thread troll, with the intent of muddying up a topic.

This is my last reply to you.

I really don't see why you think so.

What is muddying a topic? I am making it clearer.

There is no need to make things into a religion. The key is to understand a subject; this never muddy a subject.

Stocking fish slowly has its major disadvantages. This is simply true. I have stocked fish quickly for decades and like this method.

When I was green I would not have the ability or nerve to do so.

This does not weaken the call for beginners to stock slowly, but for the right reason.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I think one reason why extra nitrification capacity can save the day is when you have to use an antibiotic that somewhat depresses nitrification, such as neomycin, kanamycin.

Many antibiotics will reduce nitrification somewhat. If it is already marginal it may cause significant ammonia surge. It is better that you have some to spare.

This is another reason why I think high nitrification capacity at the end of cycle is good. This high capacity will last at least close to a month possibly longer, even without much bioload.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15723560#post15723560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
How would you cycle for a ten inch queen angel? How do you make sure that the nitrification will be enough after cycling for a new tank for this fish?

Just think about it step by step how you would do so.

I hope those who don't want to answer this question would at least really think about it.

Step by step, how would you prepare a new tank to house a ten-inch queen angel fish?

Those who religiously claim that one MUST stock slowly, and otherwise is irresponsible, should really think about this problem.

Which is more responsible, the tail of the fish first and then the head?

It is not necessarrily irresponsible to stock many medium size fish at once, no more than stocking one very large fish.

Beginners should stock fish slowly for disease control reason, NOT for nitrification problem. The concept of new tank syndrome, as far as insufficient nitrification, should be no longer relevent. It is now 2009 and means to overcome is very available. Even a beginner can easier overcome it.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Sometimes people have a cause to champion. In this case I think is slow stocking of fish.

The reason is wrong for the cause, even if the cause can be sustained. Adhering to the wrong reason as fact is very bad for other activities in this hobby.

I am saying here that limited nitritfication is NOT the reason for slow stocking of fish, and also that the belief in gradual stocking of fish due to limited nitrification implies that mini-cycling is OK. Someone here even state that there will be ammonia surge if you add new fish. This is a very bad conception and hinders individual advancment in this hobby.

This is a case of the dog wagging the tail. The belief that mini-cycling is unavoidable and OK is much worse than the chance that a few novices will stock fish quickly. Novices should not stock fish quickly, for disease control reasons, not limited nitrification .

Mini-cycling is 100% preventable in DT and almost 100% preventable in QT. Thorough cycling in QT promotes adherence to QT. I suggest that facts should be laid out even if unfavorable for a certain cause.