How long for vodka to work?

[tmz]

You would have the same results if you just lowered your dose of vodka. If you accounted for that, and still had cyano with one and not the other, then differences shown were differences in the water makeup that were affected by the dosing, and not the dosing itself.

Don't get what you are trying to saying here. There would be less organic carbon if you simply reduced the vodka dose.
Dosing effects the water and activity in . More or less H and O added are differences of note and will affect the water and what's in it differently. That's the whole point of dosing: isn't it?

 

[Aqualund]

Nitrifying Bacteria are just basic Bacteria, theres no magic formula for them. They utilize the same Calvin cycle as every other bacterial organism, and they will do it at a rate appropriate to their population, size, and environment. If you dose the right amount of vodka or vinegar, they will utilize it to propagate at a ratio proportional to its growth rate. if you dose too much, they will still propegate at the same rate, and any remainder in the water column will be utilized by other opportunistic bacteria...like cyano bacteria.

The chemical composition of vodka and vinegar and their differences are of note...but i contend that if a tank is getting Cyano from "dosing" the owner is either dosing too much, or there is another water parameter that is out of whack which is doing more to contribute to the cyano outbreak than the difference of covalently bonded Hydrogen and Oxygen Molecules.

 

[tmz]

Oh, I see were clarifying by dosing vodka and vinegar together now.

No , not a new clarification; it's been the gist of the thread from the start .
Please read it. Although I think just dosing vinegar is fine.

DSB's are not required, of course. But they are beneficial once established. That is why they are employed by some of the best SPS reef tanks you can view online, and yes they only become really beneficial when you make them deep enough

They are only effective when heterotrophic facultative bacteriathrive in them and they need nitrogen , phosporous and organic carbon to do so. How can deep sand in a bucket won't do that in any appreciable quantity?

 

[tmz]

Bacteria react to food in their environment . Adding orgnaic carbon is done to increase populations of those that denitrify to increase nitrogen uptake and also via enhanced anaerobic activity N2 gas formation. Cutting the dose reduces the bacterial population so less inorganic nitrogen and phosphorous will be converted to exportable organic forms and less anerobic denitrification will occur as well.

 

[Aqualund]

How can deep sand in a bucket won't do that in any appreciable quantity?

The dissolved organics just go there. thats what they do. they dissolve...travel down...get broken down, and complete the nitrogen cycle. Just like the Jaubert System and just like in live rock. the water column permeates the rocks at every level and gas exchange is present. it works

Hkgar, I would start looking into other reasons as to why your system hasnt balanced out. Your bacterial load should be sufficient now to drop those levels to zero, and if its not, something else is helping. Heck maybe even the test kit is wrong!

 

[Aqualund]

Cutting the dose reduces the bacterial population so less inorganic nitrogen and phosphorous will be converted to exportable organic forms and less anerobic denitrification will occur as well.

True. Whereas dosing too much will cause cyano. Im glad we agree

 

[tmz]

Back to the question at hand. How long for vodka to work? I am currently on week 6 with no results yet. Specs in my signature (except NO3 is 25-30 and PO4 .04). I feed the tank 2 times a day, once with NLS pellets, once with Rods and half a sheet of Nori. Actually my nitrates have started to creep up but my phosphate has been rock steady at .04.

It has taken months in some tanks. How much are you dosing? Does the skimate exhibit more export; is it funkier than before?

 

[djkms]

It has taken months in some tanks. How much are you dosing? Does the skimate exhibit more export; is it funkier than before?

Currently I am dosing 2.5ml of vodka and 8ml vinegar.

The skimmate is NASTY. I have no doubt carbon dosing is in fact working. Not only does the skimmate stink, its thick, dark and gross.

I am just looking forward to seeing my NO3 numbers start dropping

Also, I am going to get my dosing on a dosing pump. I am currently putting in the full 8ml of vinegar (no issues) then a hour later 1ml of vodka then another 1ml a hour later than .5ml. I notice after I dose the vodka my Moorish Idol starts to act funny. Rapid breathing and erratic swimming. It doesnt happen all the time but it does happen sometimes after dosing. Anyone else ever report odd behavior with their fish? I know that vodka will strip out oxygen from the system, could that be it? I am not positive though the vodka is whats causing my Idol to act weird since it is the only fish that seems to react around dosing time.

 

[tmz]

Cutting the dose reduces the bacterial population so less inorganic nitrogen and phosphorous will be converted to exportable organic forms and less anerobic denitrification will occur as well.

True. Whereas dosing too much will cause cyano. Im glad we agree

Unfrortunately ,speaking for myself , we don't agree.
Cutting the dose is fundamentally different with obviously different effects( less organic carbon available for heterotrphic bacteria which will likely cause them to wane in response to less available organic carbon) than switching the dose to influence the nature of bacterial activity for an edge in competition with over cyano bacteria. Often cutting or stopping the dose leads to cyano outbreaks and nuisance algae blooms, perhaps fueled in part by decaying bacteria

 

[Arkayology]

Nothing should happen quickly on our tanks imo. Looking for a magic bullet to start "fixing" things in a week is not something you should hope for. I would do more water changes, feed less, reduce photo period, and run some biopellets, GFO and carbon in a media reactor and wait.

 

[tmz]

I dose twice the amount propotionately than you are using( in your 125 g ) for a heavily fed system and have for abut 3yrs. Each system is different though . Sounds like your dose is just about balancing off your inputs .
Knocking down the high nitrates short term may be beyond reach without a higher dose but then you risk a bloom ,oxygen depletion and precipitous drops in nitrate and phospahte. I'd be inclined to reduce the nitrate baseline via some waterchanges or a denitrator and continue dosing at the current level with small incremental upward ticks to manage inputs.

I keep over 40 fish, not an Idol though. I have not noticed any reactions to the vodka. Don't know why the idol is displaying the behavior noted. Maybe it needs a designated driver. I doubt the small amounts of vodka you are dosing would deplete the oxygen very much especially in the short term . I assume you are dosing it to a high flow area. The vinegar in bolus dosing might raise the CO2 quickly though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Back to the question at hand. How long for vodka to work? I am currently on week 6 with no results yet.

Within a day of adding it, I'm sure it is "working" in the sense that bacteria are growing and taking up nutrients. As to the observed measured values for nitrate and phosphate, that is a function of all the inputs minus all the outputs. If the vodka alone has not given any noticeable effect, and you are confident in your test results (many kits are not very accurate), then I'd suggest either more organic added (or a different one), more skimming to remove the bacteria formed, or additional husbandry techniques, such as growing macroalgae or GFO.

 

[djkms]

Nothing should happen quickly on our tanks imo. Looking for a magic bullet to start "fixing" things in a week is not something you should hope for. I would do more water changes, feed less, reduce photo period, and run some biopellets, GFO and carbon in a media reactor and wait.

Thanks for the insight. I am not expecting things to happen quickly, nor am I looking for a magic bullet. I was simply wondering (on average) when people started to see a decrease in nutrients after carbon dosing, specifically vodka/vinegar. I have started to increase my water change schedule to bring down my NO3.

I dose twice the amount propotionately than you are using( in your 125 g ) for a heavily fed system and have for abut 3yrs. Each system is different though . Sounds like your dose is just about balancing off your inputs .
Knocking down the high nitrates short term may be beyond reach without a higher dose but then you risk a bloom ,oxygen depletion and precipitous drops in nitrate and phospahte. I'd be inclined to reduce the nitrate baseline via some waterchanges or a denitrator and continue dosing at the current level with small incremental upward ticks to manage inputs.

I keep over 40 fish, not an Idol though. I have not noticed any reactions to the vodka. Don't know why the idol is displaying the behavior noted. Maybe it needs a designated driver. I doubt the small amounts of vodka you are dosing would deplete the oxygen very much especially in the short term . I assume you are dosing it to a high flow area. The vinegar in bolus dosing might raise the CO2 quickly though.

Makes sense, thanks Tom. Not sure what the Idols deal is, I will try to find him a designated driver:lmao:

Back to the question at hand. How long for vodka to work? I am currently on week 6 with no results yet.

Within a day of adding it, I'm sure it is "working" in the sense that bacteria are growing and taking up nutrients. As to the observed measured values for nitrate and phosphate, that is a function of all the inputs minus all the outputs. If the vodka alone has not given any noticeable effect, and you are confident in your test results (many kits are not very accurate), then I'd suggest either more organic added (or a different one), more skimming to remove the bacteria formed, or additional husbandry techniques, such as growing macroalgae or GFO.

Thanks Randy. I started with just vodka and now dose vodka/vinegar. I also have tons of macro algae's to help reduce nutrients. For a while they were able to keep up with the nutrients but now for some reason I cant use them alone to keep up with the nutrients, hence carbon dosing.

 

[tmz]

Grualted activated carbon may prove useful as well. At some point most experience slow growth or decline in macroalgae as PO4 and NO3 are lowered. I still use a macro algae fudge as well.

 

[Aqualund]

Often, Likely, Perhaps, Leads to

This is not empirical evidence, and this is your opinion.

However, I guarantee I can go into a system with no Cyano and dose too much vodka and see Cyano develop within a few days. And I can repeat this, as many times as you want. Thats pretty solid Scientific evidence right there.

 

[Dre59]

This thread was useful.. Many thanks to everyone

 

[tmz]

Re sand bucketts. The organics "just go there". Really is that a serious response?. How fast? , how much?. How do they do that in what quantity? What force moves them?

How much vodka is too much? How often have you overdosed it? What quantity? How much do you dose routinely ? What type of tank do you dose it to? What organisms are in it? When overdosed did it deplete oxygen or just cause cyano? Why do you think a primarily autotrophic organism like cyanobacteria would be more advantaged by organic carbon than heterotrophic denitrifying bacteria?

Then there is this:

would attribute that difference in not the difference of vodka or vinegar in your system, but rather that vinegar is dilluted acetic acid. Acetic acid and ethanol(vodka) have essentially the same chemical composition except acetic acid has one more O and one less H and Ethanol is the other way around.

Acetic acid is actually CH3CO2H; the CO2 drops the ph. Ehanol is C2H60. Ehanol has 2 more H( 6-4=2) than acetic acid not 1. One is an alcohol the other is an acid.

 

[Aqualund]

Hehe.

Well the organics would enter the buckets at the rate that you decide to let them...just like a denitrifying canister...I dont know why this is so hard to understand...so Ill let you read some literature on it:

http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/305309/starting-remote-deep-sand-bed-diy-in-bucket
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109

I mean, I just came up with links with a 3 minute google search.

As for vodka, I can take every one of your questions about the overdose of vodka causing cyano and apply them to your theory that only vodka causes cyano whereas vinegar does not. The thing is, I can take twice the recommended dosage of either and cause cyano. I can take half the recommended dosage of either and cause no cyano in the tank that has all parameters in line prior to dosage.

However, your position of vinegar being a better carbon dose has no merit scientifically. It is merely your personal opinion, developed from your own experiences and other unsubstantiated testimonials.

This is why, simply put, most people will irresponsibly attribute a cyano outbreak to dosing vodka...when most likely there are probably 50 other incorrect parameters within their water causing the cyano, if they were dosing the correct amount of vodka.

As for the molecular formulas...you're right, thanks, I got them swapped around. My intent was to show that their difference lies not in the carbon count but rather the number of O and H molecules they possess.

But I am sure you know that the Co2 isnt what causes the PH to drop but rather the acidification that is caused by the chemical reaction causing H ions to become free and drop the PH.

We dont need to debate the chemical properties of these compounds...because that has already been proven by science. My point however...all along has been: If you are getting cyano while dosing vodka...you're dosing too much, cut back the dose and you'll still get the same amount of benefit to the bacteria as you would dosing purely vinegar. When dosing vinegar all you're doing is dosing less of the residual compounds that aren't being used by the bacteria and therefore not giving any incentive for the cyano to capitalize on it.

But one is not better than the other. Rather, specific ratios of either are in fact more beneficial.

 

[bertoni]

This is why, simply put, most people will irresponsibly attribute a cyano outbreak to dosing vodka...when most likely there are probably 50 other incorrect parameters within their water causing the cyano, if they were dosing the correct amount of vodka.

Thinking along your lines, this is just your personal opinion, along with other statements in your post. Is there any point to this discussion? It seems to be drifting downhill. You believe that vodka can't encourage cyanobacteria, and other people disagree. There's no hard evidence either way.

 

[fishpoop]

To the OP,
I hear you. I'm in my 4th month of vodka dosing a approx 80 gal net system and kicking it up to 9ml today. I still have nitrates of 25 and PO4 .05.
I stopped increasing for a couple of weeks because my nitrates seemed to be dropping but they settled at 25. So last week I went to 8.5 and today I'm going to 9.
I guess I'll stick with it until my fish start swimming into the glass and bumping into rocks.

My experience with cyano is that it was in my tank prior to dosing. Not real bad but persistent. I would scrub and siphon it out weekly with my water changes.
It has not reappeared at all since I started dosing vodka.