How this Geezer did it in the beginning

[coralsurfer]

I want me some cookies with that milk.
The poster above is correct. Are you running it through the filter and circulating the water with powerheads?
I'm asking because the water level looks very low, start mixing and filtering it will clear up with in 8 hours or so.
I do agree tho,...... NSW would be the way to go IMO

 

[jenjen]

Your tank is probably healthier than many tanks on here.
I bet you don't have ich problems

Interestingly I don't. I did in the beginning. In my first tank I had one fish that had a couple of ich spots. I ended up tearing the tank down to catch him (and the rest of my fish). The faster I tore things apart the worse he looked. I managed to kill him in a FW dip. Only 2 of my fish survived the dip, and I still have those 2 with me nearly 6 years later - my female clown and my sixline wrasse.

These days I do a partial QT - I 'hold' fish in a temp tank (I maintain an 'experiment' tank which I use for this) for a as long as it takes until I know what they like to eat and see them eating agressively, then into the DT they go. I do spend a LOT more time observing fish before I buy them, and of course I'm not nearly as anxious as I used to be to add tons of newbies to my tank either.

If I do get ich in the tank again I have sworn to let it run it's course. That day that I killed a Kole tang in a FW dip, I felt so terrible. He most likely would have been better off if I had've left well enough alone. Thankfully I haven't seen ich in my system in several years. But hey, I'm a relative newbie. Ask me again in a few more years and it could well be a different story.

Or maybe the'll invent an actual reef-safe cure for ich, or an 'anti ich magnet' formula for all the poor magnetic tangs out there!

 

[Paul B]

The poster above is correct. Are you running it through the filter and circulating the water with powerheads?
I'm asking because the water level looks very low, start mixing and filtering it will clear up with in 8 hours or so.
I do agree tho,....

I want me some cookies with that milk.

I now have milk as salt water and have to start again. I am SERIOUSLY considering Paul has his own advise that is actually brainless simple..."keep it simple stupid" how would you like to spend 84.00 on this salt and mix it and see this 30 hours later?

I should have listened to Paul. I am new again and asked Paul his Opinion...I repeat "his opinion on a new tank start" and he suggested perhaps NSW...I went with state of the art EXPENSIVE OVER THE TOP SALT...and got fornicated.

That drive to the beach to collect water doesn't look so bad now does it?

 

[markaren]

That drive to the beach to collect water doesn't look so bad now does it?

:hmm6::hmm6::hmm6::hmm6::hmm6::hmm6::hmm6:...oh boy...:wavehand:...Hi Paul, This was not technically not an "I told you so" LOL...since you do not condone what is said here...simply a geezure adventure. In fact you say not to.

I wish I could ,
I wish I might ,
Have Listened to Paul
the other night

The said trip to the beach has already been discussed between my wife and I regarding my Salt mix adventure. She likes your posts by the way

 

[Paul B]

She likes your posts by the way

Why wouldn't she? Smart Girl, she married Prince Charming, how many girls can say they did that?

I just got back from my marina, I hooked up LED lights under the swim platform on my boat, see I switched all of my lighting to LEDs. I even broke all the interior lighting bulbs on the boat and soldered in LEDs where the glass was. Now I can anchor all night and leave al the lights on without fear of killing the batteries.
LEDs are the way to go for everything including fish tanks and I presume that in the future, LEDs are the only lights we will see anyplace. It's a no brainer.
While I was there I saw a bunch of very pregnant shrimp so I collected a bunch and threw them in my tank. If you are going to ask, no I didn't quarantine them, wash them in bleach, acclimate them, talk dirty to them, waterboard them or anything else.
They are very cool and live for years, I still have a bunch of them in there from last year.
I think this sunday I will go collecting with my boat in the Sound if it is low tide if anyone wants to come. You guys in Alaska, Coos bay Oregon, Lake Ticonderoga, and the Island of Iwa Jima may have a hard time getting to my marina but if anyone else wants to go (and the tide is low) let me know.

 

[Paul B]

OK lets talk about why so many people spend so much money on this hobby. Being this is supposed to be how this Geezer did things, I will tell you what I do.
I already mentioned that I like to use NSW but don't collect that often. NSW is free.
As for ASW, I only change water 5 or 6 times year so that costs about,,,,,, I don't know, how much does ASW cost? I use about 100 gallons a year or it so that is probably about $100.00 a year for water.
I built the skimmer, lights, surface skimmer, algae trough and ATO so that didn't cost much and it lasts forever so I really can't count that. I dose home made calcium which is ice melting calcium chloride and baking soda so I think that costs about $5.00 a year, maybe 6.
I also use some Lugols Iodine and I bought a bottle of that about 20 years ago for about $20.00 and still have half a bottle left so that is 50 cents a year. Now we get into the expensive stuff. I buy live blackworms for $2.00 about every two weeks so that comes to $50.00 a year (wow I may have to cut down on that) and I buy a chowder clam about once a month for 50 cents so that is $6.00 a year. Oh I forgot mysis, they are about $8.00 every 2 months which comes to $48.00 a year.
So the total I spend on my tank a year is $210.00. OK there is electricity but I have solar panels on my roof. (Don't complain about that, everyone can do that)
And I do replace the RO membrane about every 3 years and the DI resins may be $40 a year so I will add that which comes to $250.00 a year without electricity. That isn't too bad. I am going out to dinner tonight on my boat and betwen the dinner and gas it will cost be about $200.00 so it costs me about $50.00 more a year for the tank than it costs to go to dinner on my boat once.
I know many people spend a few more dollars than I do but except for test kits (that I don't have) I really don't know what you are throwing your money away on. You can send it to me and I will save it for you if you like.:beer:

OK I do buy some corals but not to oftem because they grow and I have to give pieces away. I also occasionally buy a fish but they live forever and I also give some of them away so I can't count that.
Anyway, have a great day whatever you do :wave:

PS I forgot the shrimp eggs. Add another ten bucks

 

[Reef or Die]

This is unbelievable. Your perseverance is second to none and your trials and tribulations definitely make a you a true pioneer of the saltwater hobby ..
We have certainly come a long way... Copper pennies, geez! Lol

 

[Paul B]

your trials and tribulations definitely make a you a true pioneer of the saltwater hobby ..

Thank you, I am old.
"Trials and Tribulations"
That is a coincidence, I wrote an article about 15 or 20 years ago called Trials and Tribulations.

http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=25

 

[Paul B]

I got off easy last night and the dinner and gas was only $150.00 so now my tank seems easy and it costs about $100.00 more to keep the tank than for dinner on the boat once. But I am going again tonight so that will bring me over what the tank costs.
The LEDs I installed under the swim platform look really nice although they are useless.

My cardinals regularly spawn,

JenJen, thats why there are no reef tanks in the Vatican. The Pope hates it when the Cardinals spawn. :facepalm:

 

[Paul B]

I just keep thinking of the things I could've done with my tanks when I lived on the island. 5 minutes to Bayville- could have used water, rocks, sand, livestock. Never even thought of it. Too busy chasing girls

Speaking of chasing girls, I was stationed in Colorado for a few months and I rented this motorcycle. (This was before I was married) I was riding this big cool looking bike on this road out in the middle of nowhere when this convertable goes past me with two beautiful Babes in it. I stayed with them for a few miles looking as cool as I could, all 19 years old that I was with hair, muscles and all. Then we came to a light and I figured I would put my moves on them. At that time everyone was wearing bell bottoms and as I went to put my foot down to hold the bike while I was stopped next to their car, my pants leg got stuck on the starter pedal and me and the bike went down on the street.
Unfortunately, you didn't need a helmit them but I really wanted to hide my face which I am sure was beet red. I stayed on the ground, to embarassed and unable to move until they were a couple of miles ahead of me, then I got up and went in the opposite direction.
If you girls are reading this, I am cooler now. :wave:
You also mentioned Bayville beach. I spent many years fishing and SCUBA diving there, did you know that about 50 yards off the beach is a huge sunken barge with the front broken off? It comes to about 5' from the surface. The blackfish are so huge in there that I was always afraid to go in there and you can just see these very large shadows as you swim past the opening. (I will go past there tonight on my way to dinner)

If you are going to cycle with fish, you in theory should work to prevent losses, and to ensure the fish isn't in excess pain

This brings up something that you are really going to hate me for. :facepalm:
Do you think that fish feel "pain"? I mean pain like we would feel? I personally don't think so. Of course it is a very hard thing to figure out but I came to my decision after years of closely looking at and swimming with them. A fish is an animal that almost never dies of old age, they are always eaten alive by something larger or they suffocate on the deck of a ship. (some of them are used to cycle tanks but we already spoke of those) For every fish we see, millions of their siblings were eaten. As I already said, I eat them almost every day but last night I had calamari, clams and a really good tuna steak and tonignt I am having oysters.
But getting back to fish pain, my theory about this started many years ago when I used to fish a lot. I noticed that I could catch a short flounder and half his mouth would be torn up and I would throw him back only to catch it again five minutes later. You would think that it would be in too much pain for a while to eat again so soon. That has happened many times to me. Another example happened to one of my hippo tangs, he ate a worm and a triggerfish came along and took the worm from him along with half his face and his lower jaw. The hippo continued swimming and tried to eat even though he had no mouth. One more example, I have seen a shark that was completely torn open by a larger shark and his intestines were trailing behind him. His main interest was swimming around in circles eating his own guts. That does not sound like something an animal in pain would do.
Now I know we all love our fish and we don't want to hurt them, but they are cold blooded animals and vastly different from mammals which obviousely feel pain. I know fish feel something because all creatures need senses to get around in their world, but it would seem that feeling pain would not be bred into an animal that is always going to die a horrible death.
At least I hope they don't feel pain or many of them are in trouble if their owners keep them in a tank and let them get ich, velvet, fin rot, HLLE, swim blader disease, oodinium, Pop Eye, the heartbreak of psorisis, etc.
Anyway that is my take on fish pain and I explained why I think that. How do you feel? and it doesn't count if you say something like they are like my family and I just know they feel pain because I love them so much. :fish1:
Come up with a real idea. I am open to ideas. I may be wrong. :bum:

 

[londonloco]

I hope your right....

 

[Megatrev62]

Hey Paul, really enjoying this thread. As for pain, I'll relate this one. Had to remove some small comets(about 10) to make room for my african cichlids. I had moved a long distance and my fish were going to be flown up to my new location by a friend of mine. Anyway, we discussed what to do with the comets. I moved to a very small community where I purshased the comets from a tiny retail outlet so dropping them back was a no go.

My friend had read somewhere to boil the kettle and pour the boiling water over the fish. He said once the water hit the gills, they would die immediately. I was going to freeze them. Anyway, went with the boiling water. As soon as the water hit the fish, they jumped out of their skin!! Eyeballs out of sockets, gills torn apart and the flopping around was unreal. This was a horrible idea and had me sweating buckets of water literally during this.

If they didn't feel that boiling water (pain), then I'm a monkeys uncle.

 

[Paul B]

I hope your right

I hope also, not that I plan on torturing fish or anything, it is just a theory.
And as I mentioned, I also hope my new born brine shrimp and blackworms don't feel pain.
Both cold blooded animals.

 

[MeTaLMaN1375]

Paul I want to first thank you for your courageous service for our country its because of people like yourself that I get to appreciate and be grateful for my freedom. Thank you PaulB. I would also like to say man this is a great read even when you stray from the whole fish subject great read best post on these forums by far keep it going. lol

 

[MeTaLMaN1375]

Wow! Thanks for the memories. I don't miss TVs without remotes but this thread really made me remember my first aquarium, a 10 gallon starter kit from Petland Discounts in Yonkers ny back in 1980. Great read Paul !!

Ha I used to work at that petland as a kid many great memories.

 

[Paul B]

If they didn't feel that boiling water (pain), then I'm a monkeys uncle.

Megatrev, thank you for responding. I am sure the fish jumped like crazy. I didn't say they didn't feel anything, I said I don't "think" they feel pain. Even a grasshopper, flea or worm will jump if you boil it, I know lobsters do. All animals need to feel something to stay out of trouble.
I don't think they feel pain and I still would not pour boiling water on them. When I cook lobsters I also don't throw them in boiling water like it says in all the recipies. I put them in fresh water and in an hour or so, they die. You have to kill them somehow if you are going to eat them and they can live 60 years so you may not want to wait for them to die of old age. But if you eat them in a restaurant, they threw then in boiling water, you can bet on it. I hope they don't feel actual pain like we do, because if they do, we are not very nice creatures.

even when you stray from the whole fish subject great read best post on these forums by far keep it going.

MeTaLMaN1375, Thank you for the kind words. I was not trying to stray too far from fish tanks but I know it is going all over the place and I tend to ramble when I am talking about something that I love. As I said many times, to me, this is not a hobby. A hobby is something you see and you like it so you get interested and learn more about it. I grew up in a fish market so I was always surrounded by fish. We only ate fish and I saw fish every day so I was kind of born into it and I never lived even a day without a fish tank. So, to me, it is just a way of life. There was always a fish tank but my dad never had one as far as I know.
This is also not my only hobby, I make wine, I SCUBA, I love boating and anything to do with the sea. Anything mechanical to me is facinating and I love it when something breaks so I can pull it apart and repair it. I also love to re-design things because I really hate the way mechanical things are designed. Usually when I fix something I re build it to be better. This week I had to fix our washing machine. When I tried to take it apart, the screws that hold on the bottom panel were rusted so I had to drill them out. This is a 3 year old machine and those bottom screws always rust out. So for about 12 cents I replaced the screws with stainless steel screws. I mean, it's a no brainer but the engineer who designed the thing didn't think that additional 12 cents was worth while.
I could go on forever with lousy designed items and I often wonder what do they teach in engineering school.
My boat and most boats have a hydrallic pump that raises and lowers the outdrives. It comes on a big iron bracket. If you had to pick a material that was going to be used in a bilge of a boat and that material was going to be sitting in salt water 24/7, what material would you use? The engineers picked iron. Wood would even have been better.
But Iron! Out of all the materials you could have used. The replacement part is stainless steel and it cost $125.00. The original Iron bracket lasts about 3 years then you have to vacuum it out because it turns to dust.
I re built it with 1/2" plexiglass that cost about $12.00 and will last longer then the pyramids. Like Duh, and I didn't go to college. I really have a problem with stupidity.:uhoh3:
So far I have been lucky and I have never had to hire anyone to fix or build anything. I even built a lot of our furniture, not because I can't afford it, but I like what I build better and I could customize it to fit the house.
I do have to pay a dentist though. But if I could see in there, I would do that too. :facepalm:
I did mention I ramble and this thread is going all over the place. I will try to think of a fish thing that I didn't discuss.:crazy1:

 

[Detroit_306]

Great read.. Paul if companies made products that never broke I would be out of work and they couldn't release new products every year!

 

[Paul B]

I can't believe this, GE just called me up on my cell phone asking me how I fixed the washing machine. I explained to them that they have a design problem and offered a suggestion on how to fix it. The thing has a manifold that directs water to the bleach or fabric softener compartment to dispense the chemicals. This manifold is a sealed unit and it is only about 1/4" deep so water in there eventually grows mold and clogs the entire unit. You can't get in there to clean it and the new manifold is $125.00.
But the problem will happen again. I just removed it and filled it up with Draino to clear out the mold and yuck. It works perfectly.
They got my phone number because I E Mailed them and told them of the problem. Thats the first time an appliance manufacturer called me. Maybe they read this thread.

 

[Paul B]

Great read.. Paul if companies made products that never broke I would be out of work and they couldn't release new products every year!

This is true but I didn't say they should never break, but they should at least last 10 minutes longer than the warranty. I like these badly made products because I like re designing them. Too bad for people why can't fix anything, they are in trouble.
I myself market an item and I try very hard to have the thing built so that it lasts forever. I do not build in any parts that I feel will break and I tried very hard to design it so that it will last as long as possable.
I can't mention it on here because my company is not a sponsor here and I am not allowed to mention it so please "don't" ask about it.

Cars now are built much better than when I was young. I made a lot of money fixing cars and it helped me pay for my house. I would always get jobs replacing ball joints, tune ups, shocks, mufflers etc. None of that stuff breaks any more. I have not heard of anyone replacing ball joints even if the car has 200,000 miles on it and spark plugs last 50 or 60,000 miles. Probably forever. Even mufflers and exhaust systems last forever.
I used to change those things every two years on my cars. I still have all the tools, even engine rebuilding tools but I doubt I will ever use any of them again. So cars are one thing that have gotten much better.

 

[Paul B]

My powerheads are probably 20 years old and some of them are still fine. But I also have a Korilia and it is not built too well. It stops and needs frequent cleaning, not a great design and it is only about 2 years old. If it croaks I am going to have to write a nasty letter to the manufacturer.
I like things that last forever.