how to determine "lineage" of a coral frag?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11797514#post11797514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by deklin
jmaneyapanda- You're demanding 100% certainty in an area where it is impossible to acheive. How do you 100% know that custom tank you order has Starphire glass and not just some generic low iron glass? Because they told you? How do you 100% know that 20K MH bulb is really putting out a 20K spectrum and not 18K, what about a possibility the bulb was simply rebranded by the reputable company that sold it to you? The answer is you can't 100% know, does that mean you don't buy it?

If you don't want the Charmin then just buy the generic stuff (I like that analogy Unarce ;) )

We are talking about confirming lineages here- there is no black or white. That what I thought this thread was about. Your questions are actually proving my point. How do we know that that glass is staphire? Or that is really is 20K? We don't. Because there is no independant regulatory agency. And as a result, eveybody knows that there is really no standarding in coloration of bulbs, or clarity of glass. But then again, this therad is about confirming lineage of corals- so, again, I go back to my original comment, how is anything confirmed when it is all word of mouth? What is "real" or "fake" LE coral?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11797514#post11797514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by deklin
jmaneyapanda- You're demanding 100% certainty in an area where it is impossible to acheive. How do you 100% know that custom tank you order has Starphire glass and not just some generic low iron glass? Because they told you? How do you 100% know that 20K MH bulb is really putting out a 20K spectrum and not 18K, what about a possibility the bulb was simply rebranded by the reputable company that sold it to you? The answer is you can't 100% know, does that mean you don't buy it?

If you don't want the Charmin then just buy the generic stuff (I like that analogy Unarce ;) )

And if I do want the Charmin, I will buy it in the Cahrmin bag. I wont get a loose roll and go on heresay that its charmin. And I woudlnt expect someone else to buy a loose roll from me as Charmin. Get my point?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11798048#post11798048 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
We are talking about confirming lineages here- there is no black or white. That what I thought this thread was about. Your questions are actually proving my point. How do we know that that glass is staphire? Or that is really is 20K? We don't. Because there is no independant regulatory agency. And as a result, eveybody knows that there is really no standarding in coloration of bulbs, or clarity of glass. But then again, this therad is about confirming lineage of corals- so, again, I go back to my original comment, how is anything confirmed when it is all word of mouth? What is "real" or "fake" LE coral?

I agree with you that nothing exists or is likely to ever exist that will 100% confirm the lineage of the coral frag you are purchasing. I just don't agree with the direction you go afterwards in that attempting to track lineage is thus worthless and just a marketing ploy anyways. There is clear value in obtaining a specific strain of coral, even if you cannot be 100% certain of the lineage.
 
Just about anything could be faked. For me buying from a complete stranger, I think a copy of a receipt from established online vendors is about the best I could hope for. If it is through a few generations since it's initial sell, I would say a log of who bought it and when going back to the original receipt.

In reality, I doubt I would be able to get that in very many sales. But it would be nice if I could.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11798066#post11798066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
And if I do want the Charmin, I will buy it in the Cahrmin bag. I wont get a loose roll and go on heresay that its charmin. And I woudlnt expect someone else to buy a loose roll from me as Charmin. Get my point?

So all I need is a "tyree LE" bag and I can put anything I want in it and sell it at top dollar? :D

Using your own logic, just because it is in a charmin bag doesn't mean you can be 100% sure it is the product or standard you are paying for. There is no "independant regulatory agency" that's testing the TP in your bag. My point is that a varying amount of uncertainty exists with almost every purchase we make. Granted that purchasing LE coral frags comes with more uncertainty than TP wrapped in a Charmin bag, in neither situation can you be 100% certain you are getting exactly what you are expecting. But just because you aren't 100% certain doesn't reduce the value of the item all the way down to the generic equivalent.
 
Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
And if I do want the Charmin, I will buy it in the Cahrmin bag. I wont get a loose roll and go on heresay that its charmin. And I woudlnt expect someone else to buy a loose roll from me as Charmin. Get my point?

The Charmin thing was a loose analogy, but even the packaging in the retail world cannot guarantee that what you're getting is the real thing.

How much counterfeit Colgate from China made it to our shelves? Just in our hobby, how many bought the Lumenarc from Coralvue, not knowing it wasn't the real thing?

A society of reefkeepers that enjoy collecting lineage/designer pieces, knowingly accept the conditions and challenges that come along with it. That's why...THE THRILL OF THE HUNT...is such a big part of it:)
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11797885#post11797885 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carb850
Who is to say I didn't ask politely the first time? I don't believe it was my tone, I believe it was the question itself.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say you didn't ask politely, you said you asked for "proof" alot of times I simply asked who the seller got the frag from and often I was volunteered with enough information. I am not looking for bill of sale or the original purchase receipt from fragfarmer etc.. as mentioned maybe in CA the trace was easier as there isn't alot of shipping involved tracing the origin of the frag to its "designer".
 
Who cares, if you like it buy it. Its coral, which can be traced back to the ocean. Wait, but which one? Life is too short to argue this point, especially since their are no governing/regulatory bodies to confirm the validity of a species' lineage.
 
To be honest, mI think we are saying the same thing here. as per the tilte of this therad "how to determine "lineage" of a coral frag", the answer is you can't. You can get a best estimate, but what is the purpose.

Delkin, I think knowing a degree of the background is important, but this is a far cry from determining a lineage. If I got a frag from someone that I trusted, and they told me it was in captive systems for 10 years, I would be comfortable. But, if this same person told me, this is a 100% Unarce frag, I wouldnt necessarily believe it, or care for that matter, because it isnt that I would belive the seller, but I would also have to belive evey person before him and before him, and so on and so on. For every degree of transaction, the liklihood of accuracy drops. You say "There is a clear value in obtaining a strain of coral, even if you cant be assured 100% its lineage". I dont understand what you mean. How can you have a value in something you're not sure you have? Lets use Karl's wtaremelon chalice as an example. Lets say that the "true" watermelon chalice is noted to be exceptionally hardy and grows fast (or whatever). This only applies to me whether I have that coral, right? And, if I cant be sure I have that coral, I cannot assume any of its benefits. I just as likely have the "fake" watermelon chalice. SO the value of a delinieated coral can only be obtained if you have the dilenated coral. Right? This silly toilet papare analogy actually kinda reinforces my point. If you did have an "official Tyree Frag" bag, and that was the benchmark for the coral, you could put green star polyps in it, and people would buy it at a premium, bevause, unfortunately, thats where this hobby has gone. Offer people a gorgeous coral that is not named, or an equal sized piece of an ugly coral with the name "tyree LE acro", and I would gurarantee 95% of the poeple would probably take the "tyree" frag, despite its looks, health, or otherwise, simply on it hyped up name and status symbol. BTW, of course my statistics are mere speculations.
 
Another slight variation, but seeing is believing.

Another slight variation, but seeing is believing.

Interesting discussion here gents . . . one that I couldn't help but jump into as I myself enjoy buying "named" corals and sell one as well. My tiny addition to the discussion which has in some ways already been mentioned is to simply examine the mother colonies as best as possible and compare them to what you have, want, or are buying from. For instance here are two photos of "Oregon Tort". The first photo is of the mother colony owned by Soutas Saltwater in Portland, OR and taken pre 2000. The second photo is my colony today. The next photo is the Tyree PM taken from his web site and my tiny frag I acquired in September. My point here is two fold, and like I said it has already been discussed here indirectly, BUT if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and you like the duck then it is probably a duck but who cares whether it's a duck because if you like it that's all that matters. If one is buying a "named" coral without knowing what that coral should look like then I say shame on them. If you want an "Oregon Tort" because you want a super navy blue stag and the seller does not have a picture of a super navy blue mother colony then I'm thinkin' don't buy from that guy. A frag and an offer does not a truth make. When I buy "named" corals, I want a story of where it came from and I want pictures of a mother colony that looks like what I have seen from the originator of the name. Maybe I won't always get a "true" specimen, but it darn better look like one because in the end that's all I care about.

So there it is; not that it makes a lick of difference to the discourse. I just couldn't help adding my 2 cents.



Joe



OregonT2.jpg


BestTort2.jpg


TyreePM.jpg


20ktest1.jpg
 
I say it's hard to proof. It's funny and sad. I have the orginal red watermelon colony listed on reef farmers, and I see places all over the net selling it. I've sold 2 frags recently, and one mini colony last spring myself and know that Hugo sold some when he had it. It grows pretty quick for me, but my colony is huge now. I just was tinkering around on the net because I just started farming it once again and found a site that had me listed, but only had the first 4 letters of my last name. They said it came directly from me, but my last name was incomplete, so I emailed them to see who they got it from and to at least correct the spelling of my last name if they are going to list it! I just get a laugh out of that.

I also had someone email me who bought some of it, and asked me if I farmed through that vendor, which I could honestly say I did. However, I've had others ask me the same question, yet was unable to confirm anything for them because where they got it from wasn't farmed by me, but it still could have been real and came from someone else who diced up there frag they got from someone who had already had a frag.

I just wish everyone was honest, but it's not going to happen. I think if a person is wants something that they like and want to pay for it, reguardless of the name/orgin of the coral, they should buy it. A lot of people (including myself) for some reason just seek out 'rare' things that have names. I think of the beauty and of my tank like a piece of art. Some like the biology of tanks. I think the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It would be nice to stop imposters yes, but wow, would that ever rock the coral world and make expensive corals even more expensive which would be good and bad. I can honestly say, that I haven't bought any LE corals, nor 'named' corals for about a year now and have found many nice colonies of a coral that's just a nice or nicer than most LE's or crazy named zoanthids. Reefing is a cool game to play but that's just my opinion.
 
I think what this stuff really boils down to is newer folks wanting all these cool pieces they see and not being able to obtain them readily, frustrating them to the point they feel locked out, which is understandable.

I posted this in another thread today, not realizing this thread was current, and thought it to be an older one bumped up. As it relates I will repost it here:

"I like the naming thing for the pieces that transcend from "pink milli" and has taken on an identity unique to itself that separates it from the rest and resides in the reefkeeping culture for one unique reason or another. After all, the Declaration of Independence is just a musty old piece of paper isn't it?

Unfortunately, there are two groups involved: The hobbyist and the merchandiser. While my description and appreciation for this is coming from a collector and hobbyist point of view, there has been a surge in naming recently for pieces that just don't need to be. I pay these marketing ploys no bother and don't consider pieces until they are established by the reefkeeping community as valuable, not the retailers. Sure, I could name a piece tomorrow "dot's dippin' dots", but if its a turd of a coral and it doesn't stand out in the crowd, why bother naming a piece that won't be around long, only to slip back into obscurity as most of these do.

However, in a ever increasing competitive coral market, any sliver of a coral to be the next "big thing" will most likely get a name so that person can claim "ownership" in finding it, and tag along for the ride with the popularity of the piece. Its this reason I forsee more problems in the future of the same piece carrying two different names at the same time, and problems with phonies being slipped in. The outcome in the end is creating an ocean of uniqly named pieces, deviating from the original purpose of seperating the cream from the crop.

(Thats why we will confuse those who are trying to cash in on the "named" coral market and use names such as "Pink Milli" and "Acropora sp." for the important names, since those are the "rare" ones these days)

The LE thing is still grassroots based if you think about it from the lineage and grassroots networking points of view, it helps strengthen the group and "grass roots" feel people have mentioned they miss from the old days, meeting in parking lots and other imprompteu meeting locations to trade.

A certificate of authenticity could make the problem potentially go away, but then who is this governing "body", and how would the pace (and price) of this "piece of mind" cost? In my mind, that would only further strip part of the identity and culture of the hobby, only create the heiracrchy and "elitism" per se that would come about from it. I think someone should be documenting the history of the hobby as Tyree and other sites have attempted to do, not to issue a certificate of authenticity.

I will be the first to admit, we in California are spoiled, and consider myself lucky. And as Karl pointed out, its real easy to verify the piece as the originators are either friends, or friends of friends. As I eluded to in my other post, this is at the very heart of what "the good 'ol days" were about as many are quick to point out when this discusson comes up. The networking and trust with your fellow reefers is just as important to me as anything else within the hobby.

So I ask this, why do you care about lineage? I think it adds to my experience of the hobby, sharing in part of the lore and mystique of some of the pieces, and to be able to be a part of an extended family per se, which of whom are people I greatly respect.

Look, lets not be naive about this........its all about money and peoples want for instant gratifcation.......which are the real topics.

In the end, I like pretty colors........which is why most LE's are LE's to begin with.

This subject, and the lines it draws within the SPS community at times is toubling to me.
 
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