Toddrtrex
Premium Member
Yep, 2 of my tanks that have a 2 of them in there get real happy every 2-3 weeks when the shrimp release their brood.
How to FEED your reef tank so that your corals will really GROW, instead of ho-hum...
- Thread starter capecoral
- Start date
Yep, 2 of my tanks that have a 2 of them in there get real happy every 2-3 weeks when the shrimp release their brood.
I have also never dosed my clam with anything and they double in size in a year.
I got this guy at about an inch and a half. It grew to about 6" in two years with nothing except watching TV
Note also that Paul B is not using the typical Berlin method employed by most reef hobbyists. Plus didn't you mention that you capture plankton from long island sound on occasion?
Greenmaster
New member
What is the common name for those Lysmata spp. shrimp?
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__________________
If you don't like what you are looking at you are looking at it the wrong way.
My 320g build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1840581
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
cleaner shrimps. Many species.
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Aquarist007
New member
would a pair of them be better off in a refugium where the brood can be slowly released back into the display tank?
I am just wondering if a slow steady feed is more advantageous for corals
"Effect of naturally changing zooplankton concentrations on the feeding rates of two coral species in the Eastern Pacific. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology, 2006"
"Zooplankton concentrations are known to vary by as much as an order of magnitude over a lunar [overnight] cycle. We conducted an experiment to determine the effect of ambient zooplankton concentrations [amount of food in the water], over a lunar cycle, on feeding rates of the corals Pavona gigantea (mounding coral, 3mm diameter polyps) and Pocillopora damicornis (branching coral, 1mm diameter polyps) on a shallow reef at Isla Contadora, Gulf of Panama´ (Pacific), Panama. Coral fragments exposed to either enhanced or ambient zooplankton concentrations were allowed to feed for 1 hour, then collected, and their gut contents were dissected. The number of zooplankton captured was counted; the feeding rates were calculated per square cm; and the species composition of captured zooplankton assemblages determined. Although both species [of coral] captured the same zooplankton [types], feeding rates were always significantly higher for Pavona gigantea than for Pocillopora damicornis. Under ambient flow and zooplankton concentrations, feeding rates were highly correlated with zooplankton concentration in the 0.2 to 0.4 mm size class. Under constantly enhanced zooplankton concentrations in the control fragments, feeding rates did not vary significantly over the lunar cycle. As such, coral feeding rates vary not as a result of lunar phase per se, but with changes in zooplankton abundance over the lunar cycle. Coral feeding rates are directly proportional to ambient zooplankton concentrations [amount of food in the water], and may vary by as much as 50% over a lunar cycle, suggesting that corals must cope with major swings in sources of fixed carbon and nutrients over relatively short timescales."
"[...] Corals have been observed to use multiple heterotrophic inputs as food sources, including particulate organic matter, bacteria and zooplankton."
"In addition to fixed carbon, zooplankton are thought to provide corals with nutrients such as nitrogen and phosphorus that are not supplied by zooxanthellae [from the sun]. It is believed that heterotrophic [not from the sun] inputs are necessary for maximal coral growth, with isotopic evidence indicating that as much as 66% of the fixed carbon in coral skeletons can come from these inputs."
"[...] The ability to capture a wide range of zooplankton [types] is not related to polyp size."
"As in previous studies, a positive relationship between feeding rate and zooplankton concentration [in the water] was observed, and [increased] equivalently with zooplankton concentration regardless of coral morphology."
"[...] Multiple types of heterotrophic inputs, including zooplankton, detritus [waste], and bacteria, may be necessary to maintain maximal coral growth. In cases where multiple sources of heterotrophic inputs cannot compensate for reduced zooplankton capture, average growth rates of skeleton and tissue may be reduced."
We found on youtube.. Video of a freshwater plankton robot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV3_O3aeAyw
Island used for tests:
http://isla-contadora.com
"Zooplankton concentrations are known to vary by as much as an order of magnitude over a lunar [overnight] cycle. We conducted an experiment to determine the effect of ambient zooplankton concentrations [amount of food in the water], over a lunar cycle, on feeding rates of the corals Pavona gigantea (mounding coral, 3mm diameter polyps) and Pocillopora damicornis (branching coral, 1mm diameter polyps) on a shallow reef at Isla Contadora, Gulf of Panama´ (Pacific), Panama. Coral fragments exposed to either enhanced or ambient zooplankton concentrations were allowed to feed for 1 hour, then collected, and their gut contents were dissected. The number of zooplankton captured was counted; the feeding rates were calculated per square cm; and the species composition of captured zooplankton assemblages determined. Although both species [of coral] captured the same zooplankton [types], feeding rates were always significantly higher for Pavona gigantea than for Pocillopora damicornis. Under ambient flow and zooplankton concentrations, feeding rates were highly correlated with zooplankton concentration in the 0.2 to 0.4 mm size class. Under constantly enhanced zooplankton concentrations in the control fragments, feeding rates did not vary significantly over the lunar cycle. As such, coral feeding rates vary not as a result of lunar phase per se, but with changes in zooplankton abundance over the lunar cycle. Coral feeding rates are directly proportional to ambient zooplankton concentrations [amount of food in the water], and may vary by as much as 50% over a lunar cycle, suggesting that corals must cope with major swings in sources of fixed carbon and nutrients over relatively short timescales."
"[...] Corals have been observed to use multiple heterotrophic inputs as food sources, including particulate organic matter, bacteria and zooplankton."
"In addition to fixed carbon, zooplankton are thought to provide corals with nutrients such as nitrogen and phosphorus that are not supplied by zooxanthellae [from the sun]. It is believed that heterotrophic [not from the sun] inputs are necessary for maximal coral growth, with isotopic evidence indicating that as much as 66% of the fixed carbon in coral skeletons can come from these inputs."
"[...] The ability to capture a wide range of zooplankton [types] is not related to polyp size."
"As in previous studies, a positive relationship between feeding rate and zooplankton concentration [in the water] was observed, and [increased] equivalently with zooplankton concentration regardless of coral morphology."
"[...] Multiple types of heterotrophic inputs, including zooplankton, detritus [waste], and bacteria, may be necessary to maintain maximal coral growth. In cases where multiple sources of heterotrophic inputs cannot compensate for reduced zooplankton capture, average growth rates of skeleton and tissue may be reduced."
We found on youtube.. Video of a freshwater plankton robot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV3_O3aeAyw
Island used for tests:
http://isla-contadora.com
Attachments
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
slow steady feeding is better for corals but that's not how Lysmata work
pair of Lysmata are better off in DT.
Aquarist007
New member
slow steady feeding is better for corals but that's not how Lysmata work
pair of Lysmata are better off in DT.
I don't quite understand Gary. I realize shrimp have their brood all at once.
But would that brood not slowly be introduced to the display tank if in the refugium?
Aquarist007
New member
this is great--thanks for posting. Can you please post the link to the report this is from
Thanks
Scott
Aquarist007
New member
I have been having a discussion with PaulB on another thread regarding his use of a diatom filter periodically to clean his water
Now we can agree that Paul's tank is not the norm---he replentishes his system with real seawater and Mahattan mud about 4 times a year.
Having learned alot from this thread---thanking you guys---I tend to believe now that use of a diatom filter in our "landlubbered" tanks can be detrimental to max coral grow in that they can remove useful organics, detrius and bacteria. Products that I have learned from this thread are essential to corals.
Most of our tanks never have or will have an influx of new bacteria etc from the sea so I would think use of diatom filter not appropriate
Rather I have found that use of a cannister filter with appropriate media in my coral frag tank has made the water prestine and not affected coral growth in the slightest.
I have not been running my protein skimmer in the coral frag tank either since I read the material on here---a good idea or not.
There are no fish in the coral frag tank but alot of inverts that I still feed mysis shrimp to.
Am I on the right track here?
Now we can agree that Paul's tank is not the norm---he replentishes his system with real seawater and Mahattan mud about 4 times a year.
Having learned alot from this thread---thanking you guys---I tend to believe now that use of a diatom filter in our "landlubbered" tanks can be detrimental to max coral grow in that they can remove useful organics, detrius and bacteria. Products that I have learned from this thread are essential to corals.
Most of our tanks never have or will have an influx of new bacteria etc from the sea so I would think use of diatom filter not appropriate
Rather I have found that use of a cannister filter with appropriate media in my coral frag tank has made the water prestine and not affected coral growth in the slightest.
I have not been running my protein skimmer in the coral frag tank either since I read the material on here---a good idea or not.
There are no fish in the coral frag tank but alot of inverts that I still feed mysis shrimp to.
Am I on the right track here?
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
relatively... no.
But shrimp larvae would be dispersed more slowly from a 'fuge than if hatched out in the display.
Placing shrimp in a 'fuge has the real possibility of destroying one of the benefits of a 'fuge in the first place- namely... a place where 'pods can safely reproduce.
And 'pod offspring are also zooplankton
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Interesting read and I appreciate the input from everyone.
I believe live food is far more beneficial than dead (dried, frozen, flake, pellet, gel, etc...) food becuase it has a longer chance of being eaten by something before it begins decomposing. The dead food we add to our tank will immediately begin decomposing and releasing DOC's. Live food that merely survives in our reef tanks for a period of time may loose nutritional value as time goes on, however, at least it doesn't immediately start decomposing.
In my 420 gal DT build I'm implementing several means of natural live food sources. I think bacterioplankton is a spectacular food source for many animals within the reef and I'm implementing the use of zeolites to promote bacterial colonization. Boomer (our resident geology expert) and many others agree that zeolites are a medium which is quickly and easily populated with high concentrations of bacteria. For many reasons, the zeolites are a preferred place for bacteria to proliferate (I believe the porosity of the zeolites is a key factor). I stir up my zeolite reactor every day or so and you can see a nice cloud of bacterioplankton being released into the tank.
I also plan to have a separate tank plumbed into the system only for pep shrimp breeding and the release of their offspring into the DT. This tank will be fed from and return back to the common water column, but it will house only pep shrimp with the sole purpose for them being to breed and release the offspring into the water. I may even have two different pep shrimp tanks set on opposite light cycles so the spawning occurs at opposite times. It sounds like pep shrimp spawn quite often and release the offspring shortly after the lights are out so I'll have the lights go out on one tank about an hour after the DT lights go out and then lighting on the other pep shrimp tank will go out during the middle of the day. It's true that corals more readily extend feeder tentacles at night but enticing PE during the day is nice to see as well (IMO).
I also have a 50 gal 6ft long macroalgea bin that has massive amounts of various tyes of micro/macro fauna. The return from the algea bin passes around the other filtration and goes directly to the end of the sump for any incidental critters to be sucked up and sent into the DT.
That is all in addition to the algea scrubbers I have which are are great mediums for microfauna reproduction.
I agree that there is a great deal of benefit in feeding corals in general. However, if that feeding compromises the quality of the water then the poor water quality negates the positive impact that the feedings can have. Phosphate directly inhibits calcification by binding to open caco3 attachemnt sites on the corals skeleton. Excessive nitrate in the aquarium not only irritates many species of corals it's also been demonstrated that excessive nitrate will encourage the overgrowth of zoox which in turn outcompete the host coral for organic carbons thus limiting host coral growth. IMO, the first and foremost important factor is pristine water quality then the next most beneficial aspect in reefing is proper feeding and close behind comes proper lighting and flow. JMO.
Jeremy
I believe live food is far more beneficial than dead (dried, frozen, flake, pellet, gel, etc...) food becuase it has a longer chance of being eaten by something before it begins decomposing. The dead food we add to our tank will immediately begin decomposing and releasing DOC's. Live food that merely survives in our reef tanks for a period of time may loose nutritional value as time goes on, however, at least it doesn't immediately start decomposing.
In my 420 gal DT build I'm implementing several means of natural live food sources. I think bacterioplankton is a spectacular food source for many animals within the reef and I'm implementing the use of zeolites to promote bacterial colonization. Boomer (our resident geology expert) and many others agree that zeolites are a medium which is quickly and easily populated with high concentrations of bacteria. For many reasons, the zeolites are a preferred place for bacteria to proliferate (I believe the porosity of the zeolites is a key factor). I stir up my zeolite reactor every day or so and you can see a nice cloud of bacterioplankton being released into the tank.
I also plan to have a separate tank plumbed into the system only for pep shrimp breeding and the release of their offspring into the DT. This tank will be fed from and return back to the common water column, but it will house only pep shrimp with the sole purpose for them being to breed and release the offspring into the water. I may even have two different pep shrimp tanks set on opposite light cycles so the spawning occurs at opposite times. It sounds like pep shrimp spawn quite often and release the offspring shortly after the lights are out so I'll have the lights go out on one tank about an hour after the DT lights go out and then lighting on the other pep shrimp tank will go out during the middle of the day. It's true that corals more readily extend feeder tentacles at night but enticing PE during the day is nice to see as well (IMO).
I also have a 50 gal 6ft long macroalgea bin that has massive amounts of various tyes of micro/macro fauna. The return from the algea bin passes around the other filtration and goes directly to the end of the sump for any incidental critters to be sucked up and sent into the DT.
That is all in addition to the algea scrubbers I have which are are great mediums for microfauna reproduction.
I agree that there is a great deal of benefit in feeding corals in general. However, if that feeding compromises the quality of the water then the poor water quality negates the positive impact that the feedings can have. Phosphate directly inhibits calcification by binding to open caco3 attachemnt sites on the corals skeleton. Excessive nitrate in the aquarium not only irritates many species of corals it's also been demonstrated that excessive nitrate will encourage the overgrowth of zoox which in turn outcompete the host coral for organic carbons thus limiting host coral growth. IMO, the first and foremost important factor is pristine water quality then the next most beneficial aspect in reefing is proper feeding and close behind comes proper lighting and flow. JMO.
Jeremy
Greenmaster
New member
I think porous ceramic is the best thing for an aquarium. Zeolite although has some benefits I believe that ceramic is better. Zeolite has a fairly high concentration of aluminum plus I found this info
"However, due to the high affinity of some zeolites for calcium, they may be less effective in hard water and may deplete calcium. Zeolite filtration is used in some marine aquaria to keep nutrient concentrations low for the benefit of corals adapted to nutrient-depleted waters."
"Zeolite is an effective ammonia filter, but must be used with some care, especially with delicate tropical corals that are sensitive to water chemistry..."
You may have to dose lots of calcium if your going to have Zeolite
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If you don't like what you are looking at you are looking at it the wrong way.
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"However, due to the high affinity of some zeolites for calcium, they may be less effective in hard water and may deplete calcium. Zeolite filtration is used in some marine aquaria to keep nutrient concentrations low for the benefit of corals adapted to nutrient-depleted waters."
"Zeolite is an effective ammonia filter, but must be used with some care, especially with delicate tropical corals that are sensitive to water chemistry..."
You may have to dose lots of calcium if your going to have Zeolite
__________________
If you don't like what you are looking at you are looking at it the wrong way.
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jlinzmaier
Premium Member
There are many different types of zeolites. I had previously used the zeo system (including the use of zeolites) for a year and a half. I had never noticed a change in calcium at any point. I have read articles which describe some zeolites having an affinity for calcium, and although I very much dislike the zeo process (and feel like it's a high wire balancing act with the life of your reef tank in your hands) the types of zeolites that are offered by korralenzucht don't seem to affect calcium levels. There is debate as to whether they truly absorb ammonia or ammonium (as marketed) or even if they facilitate the delivery of ammonia or ammonium to bacteria which consume it or break down the molecules into more usable molecules for other bacteria or microorganisms. One elemental concern with the use of the KZ zeolites is their potential affinity for potassium (thus potentially explaining the questionable possibility of potassium depletion when implementing the zeo process).
This is an article by Jens Kallmeyer taking a shot at describing zeolite ion exchange (potential for the zeolite to adsorb a potassium or calcium molecule). As I said, there is much debate about the exact biochemistry occuring when these zeolites are used in marine application and many experts in the field of geology, biology, and chemistry have very different theories and partial explanations.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_1/cav1i3/zeovit/Zeolite_Filters/Zeolite_Filters.htm
Ceramic pieces have been used for decades for bacterial proliferation media but Boomer seems to be quite adament that zeolites are a better media for bacterial proliferation. Here's a thread in which he goes into detail.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1743485&highlight=zeolite
I don't want to get the thread derailed. It's a great discussion. Just wanted to emphasize my feelings of the importance of bacterioplankton in a reef tank and what media (and means of use) is best utilized to get the bacterioplankton into the DT for the animals to feed on.
Jeremy
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Mechanical filtration and skimming will remove bacterioplankton and it's impossible to prevent a skimmer from removing some portion of the bacterioplankton produced in the tank. Here is an article by Randy about how skimmers work and what they can and do (or do not) remove.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php
Jeremy
Aquarist007
New member
You should always post the link from information you copied or quoted from
Not only is it respectful to the author but it is also the legal thing to do.:thumbsup:
+1 You should always cite your sources, it gives proper credit to the original researcher and lends credence to your claim. Quoting some online report somewhere but not providing the citation just waters down your arguement since the reader can not determine the relative validity of your information source or whether you are quoting out of context / misquoting.
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