How to put a fish to sleep (euthanize)

[vitz]

Personally speaking, I have a huge issue with this and hope it is a poor attempt at humor. With all the above information given by experienced folk why not try a humane and more respectful method???:headwalls::headwally:

and yet you seem to have absolutely no issue w/all of the mistreatment and torture you forced the fish you buy to go through in order to keep them confined for life to a pathetically small glass box ?

my, my, your indignation is pretty selective and arbitrary, don't you think?

 

[brittanysmith18]

I had a fish commit suicide by jumping out of the tank and drying out. I cried. I cry when any fish dies. It's like a kid to me, I love this hobby.

 

[humaguy]

and yet you seem to have absolutely no issue w/all of the mistreatment and torture you forced the fish you buy to go through in order to keep them confined for life to a pathetically small glass box ?

my, my, your indignation is pretty selective and arbitrary, don't you think?

Why are you here?


This thread will be closed shortly...

 

[mperales]

This is a charged subject. Strong feelings on both sides. No wrong or right answer, but I don't feel it is necessary to belittle people that want to humanely end an animal's suffering. No one has mentioned that they are euthanizing their fish because they tore a fin.
I'm sure most of us will try to help that fish to the best of his/her ability, yet sometimes it is not enough and we have to help end their suffering. Due to my training, I will make sure any pet under my care is euthanized as humanely as I can. It is the oath that I took as a Veterinarian and it is the way I am. I don't judge you for thinking "it is just a fish", don't judge others for thinking of humanely ending their fish's suffering.

That is all I'm saying in this thread.

 

[humaguy]

This is a charged subject. Strong feelings on both sides. No wrong or right answer, but I don't feel it is necessary to belittle people that want to humanely end an animal's suffering. No one has mentioned that they are euthanizing their fish because they tore a fin.
I'm sure most of us will try to help that fish to the best of his/her ability, yet sometimes it is not enough and we have to help end their suffering. Due to my training, I will make sure any pet under my care is euthanized as humanely as I can. It is the oath that I took as a Veterinarian and it is the way I am. I don't judge you for thinking "it is just a fish", don't judge others for thinking of humanely ending their fish's suffering.

That is all I'm saying in this thread.

Well said Doc, well said...

 

[vitz]

pointing a logical inconsistency is not = to belittling

and resorting to a purely ad hominem attack in lieu of reasonably defending one's inconsistent logic when they don't have an answer says alot about the attacker

i'm here to voice my opinions on a bb discussion, humaguy, the same, i presume, as the reason why you're here

 

[vitz]

edited due to software double posting

 

[vitz]

This is a charged subject. Strong feelings on both sides. No wrong or right answer, but I don't feel it is necessary to belittle people that want to humanely end an animal's suffering. No one has mentioned that they are euthanizing their fish because they tore a fin.
I'm sure most of us will try to help that fish to the best of his/her ability, yet sometimes it is not enough and we have to help end their suffering. Due to my training, I will make sure any pet under my care is euthanized as humanely as I can. It is the oath that I took as a Veterinarian and it is the way I am. I don't judge you for thinking "it is just a fish", don't judge others for thinking of humanely ending their fish's suffering.

That is all I'm saying in this thread.

i wonder where anyone has seen any data or research that shows a fish 'suffers' anything, or what they mean by 'suffering'

again, i'm all for being humane, but i also think there are alot of assumptions being made in this thread with no objective data to back up the various opinions/contentions re: the 'suffering' of fish, and that people need to be able to step back for a moment and consider whether or nor they are anthropomorphizing (sp) more than stating facts

 

[humaguy]

Perhaps, as the fish we keep are our pets, we are erring on the side of caution...but this is a topic that continues to be researched...So, even if fish are incapable of feeling pain..when I see one slowly dying it makes me uncomfortable and that in turns makes me want to do what I deem as neccessary to end that suffering, in as peaceful a way as possible...The following paper is a good read...

Here is an interesting paper that just came a few days ago...This was posted by Luiz Rocha, a true expert...the abstract is included...

A new paper just came out on the prestigious journal Fish and Fisheries that promises to reignite the debate.

J D Rose, R Arlinghaus, S J Cooke, B K Diggles, W Sawynok, E D Stevens & C D L Wynne. 2013. Can fish really feel pain? Fish and Fisheries 2013, 1-37.

Here is the abstract:

We review studies claiming that fish feel pain and find deficiencies in the methods used for pain identification, particularly for distinguishing unconscious detection of injurious stimuli (nociception) from conscious pain. Results were also frequently mis- interpreted and not replicable, so claims that fish feel pain remain unsubstantiated. Comparable problems exist in studies of invertebrates. In contrast, an extensive litera- ture involving surgeries with fishes shows normal feeding and activity immediately or soon after surgery. C fiber nociceptors, the most prevalent type in mammals and responsible for excruciating pain in humans, are rare in teleosts and absent in elas- mobranchs studied to date. A-delta nociceptors, not yet found in elasmobranchs, but relatively common in teleosts, likely serve rapid, less noxious injury signaling, trigger- ing escape and avoidance responses. Clearly, fishes have survived well without the full range of nociception typical of humans or other mammals, a circumstance according well with the absence of the specialized cortical regions necessary for pain in humans. We evaluate recent claims for consciousness in fishes, but find these claims lack adequate supporting evidence, neurological feasibility, or the likelihood that consciousness would be adaptive. Even if fishes were conscious, it is unwar- ranted to assume that they possess a human-like capacity for pain. Overall, the behavioral and neurobiological evidence reviewed shows fish responses to nociceptive stimuli are limited and fishes are unlikely to experience pain.

Here is the link...http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...12010/abstract

 

[humaguy]

On 1/17/13 I asked Luiz the following question about euthanizing a fish and here is his response...and seeing as how I do not know precisly where the brain is I am inclined to follow his advice...I have not dissected enough fish, and fish of different species to know...perhaps one day I will feel more comfortable using the "scissor method."

Quote:
Originally Posted by humaguy
Thanks Luiz...
On a related note, while taking into consideration the above, can you recommend the most efficient way to euthanize a fish...there is a thread about this and though I do not have the need to do this, I may one day...
I do not embrace the meat clever method..
Some mention the water in a freeze method, water and vodka in a freezer, just vodka, lol...and oil of clove...
Thoughts?
Many thanks and good to see you again in here...

Hey, euthanizing, so that is a delicate question. I am an ichthyologist by training, so having dissected many fish I know exactly where the brain is and go straight for it for a quick death (usually with a pair of scissors). But I understand that most people won't know where the brain is and just keep poking the head of the fish.

So, to avoid prolonged suffering (and for those who are not comfortable with the above), I would do a combination of the methods you mention above. Clove oil alone will not kill the fish, unless it is very high concentration, but freezing will, except that freezing takes a long time if not "aided", so what I would do would be to put the fish in a bag with clove oil and toss that into the freezer. It will die a happy death and won't "feel" cold .

 

[vitz]

thx for that! and for the intelligent non-ad hominem reply, heh.

this is something i've been saying for a long time, based on what little research has been done in the past, and i hope i'm not misunderstood when i try to explain/describe/talk about the whole 'do fish feel pain issue'.

i worked at a very large wholesaler for a few yrs, and have also worked as a commercial food fish farmer (very large scale) for 3,(just the tip of the iceberg re-my exp. in the hobby/industry) so i tend to not have a problem relating to these (amazing) animals also 'simply' as 'livestock' when circumstances dictate, the same way a farmer can have a cow as a family pet and still raise cattle for slaughter.

i also anthropomorphize occasionally, but i'm aware of it when i do. i simply don't get why, when trying to voice that, there seems to pop up a whole bunch of 'rabid' 'attacks' on 'how cruel i am', or 'pity my children' etc etc.

(when you work at a large import facility, you have no choice *but* to whack fish, or find some very quick way to dispose of those you can't save, for hundreds of reasons, even when your job is to save/treat as many as possible-it simply isn't practical from a time/cost effective perspective.)

i also was never able to 'get' the 'selective' logic employed by (not just in this hobby) hobbyists/people when it comes to their perception of ethics, especially since there really is nothing 'moral' or 'ethical' involved in keeping aquaria-the very nature of this beast is purely exploitative and damaging to the environment, regardless of whether an animal is wild caught or cb

(if only for the burning of fossil fuels to create the electricity we use to run our aquariums)

folks who know me here, know that i was involved for a long time in fighting against some of the more unconscionable practices of this industry, and how dedicated i am to helping customers/friends succeed in this hobby out of a general respect and awe for all life (well, except for spiders, they give me the heebie jeebies, lol)

but there's also the practical, and objective way of looking at things.

telling someone that they can whack a fish in a net is not the same thing as saying 'you should whack all fish w/a net and cleave them en masse on a sidewalk, heh.

to date, all research that's been done has indicated that fish do *not* feel pain the way we do, or the way any mammal does, for that matter.

doesn't mean i'm saying we should act 'cruelly', or should treat our charges cavalierly-i'm just saying that the methods i propose are *not* cruel, and that it would do us all good if we looked at things sometimes w/more sensibility, objectivity and reason instead of emotional knee jerking

 

[Dapg8gt]

I've done the club soda and it works pretty quickly.. Never heard of the clove oil..

I too think of my fish as pets. I've had my clowns for almost 13 years and I can't even think of selling them or giving them away even though they end up killing anything with tentacles by forcing it to be the host to the aggressive bi-weekly spawning LOL. I don't see why the poster above is trying to ram his opinion down everyone's throat stating there is no evidence to back up a fish feeling pain. Where's your evidence? Havent you ever seen a fish touch a coral that stings? I've watched my fish touch roses and sweepers to my pearl bubble coral and fly across the tank twitching and shaking off the pain. That to me (my opinion) shows they do feel some sort of pain so saying they do not is just crap..why bash people for treating a living thing like....... A LIVING THING..

If a fish is beyond treatment However it's done is better than letting it suffer IMO if you want to smash a fish that's your way, if you want to freeze it or any of the other ways stated IMO go for it. But to say that your an idiot for treating a living thing with some sort of compassion is just telling everyone else your obviously not the brightest star in the sky..

 

[vitz]

<sigh>

i did not suggest that whacking a fish is either a preferred, or the only way, to end a fish's life. i said it's an option, among the others i suggested., and there was far more 'ramming' being done down my throat by more than one emotional ad hominem type response in this thread.

i certainly never called anyone an idiot for trying to be compassionate- i said someone was using selective logic/reasoning when making claims about the morals issues involved here. you may want to re-read my posts completely and thoroughly before attacking them

 

[mperales]

Vitz, I totally appreciate your opinion and enjoy this open-minded discussion. You seem to be an objective person and I can understand your POV. My education is science based and so I understand your need for facts.
Unfortunately, as of today, there is not enough research being done about fish pain. I'm sure there are more pressing issues to study. This is what I know, and hope to provide some links to bolster my argument. I'll start by saying that I can't find a paper that I can objectively trust that says fish feel pain. Pain, even from a human standpoint, is a very subjective topic. I don't know your background/scientific education so I apologize in advance if I sound condescending.
We know that there has to be pain receptors for a being to perceive (leaving out the anthropomorphistic word "feel") pain. One type of pain receptor is called opioid receptor (which there are four types). One of the many functions of this receptors is to perceive pain. Sussane Dreborg, et al, discusses the evolution of vertebrate opiod receptors including bony fishes.
Abstract:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/40/15487.short

and Xia Li, et al, describe how opiod receptors are found in vertebrates (including rudimentally in fish) but not in invertebrates (your ant question )
Abstract:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001457939601126X

Substance P is a neurotransmitter that has been associatied with inflammatory processes and pain. Von Euler and Ostlund found levels of substance P in cod and dogfish
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1509612/?page=1

So does that mean that fish sense pain? I honestly can tell you that I don't know; however, the wiring is there for them to do so. Maybe more like a simple circuit than a complex computer but it is still there.
That is why I err on the side of caution.

 

[vitz]

Vitz, I totally appreciate your opinion and enjoy this open-minded discussion. You seem to be an objective person and I can understand your POV. My education is science based and so I understand your need for facts.
Unfortunately, as of today, there is not enough research being done about fish pain. I'm sure there are more pressing issues to study. This is what I know, and hope to provide some links to bolster my argument. I'll start by saying that I can't find a paper that I can objectively trust that says fish feel pain. Pain, even from a human standpoint, is a very subjective topic. I don't know your background/scientific education so I apologize in advance if I sound condescending.
We know that there has to be pain receptors for a being to perceive (leaving out the anthropomorphistic word "feel") pain. One type of pain receptor is called opioid receptor (which there are four types). One of the many functions of this receptors is to perceive pain. Sussane Dreborg, et al, discusses the evolution of vertebrate opiod receptors including bony fishes.
Abstract:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/40/15487.short

and Xia Li, et al, describe how opiod receptors are found in vertebrates (including rudimentally in fish) but not in invertebrates (your ant question )
Abstract:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001457939601126X

Substance P is a neurotransmitter that has been associatied with inflammatory processes and pain. Von Euler and Ostlund found levels of substance P in cod and dogfish
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1509612/?page=1

So does that mean that fish sense pain? I honestly can tell you that I don't know; however, the wiring is there for them to do so. Maybe more like a simple circuit than a complex computer but it is still there.
That is why I err on the side of caution.

taking any measures as an 'err on the side of caution/unknown' is always a good thing. it's only the dogmatically assertive opinions posed as absolutes on this thread, and 'selective logics' i have serious issues w/.

fwiw-i'm not a scientist by any means, unless a person who believes in and is a strong proponent of scientific method can also be called a 'scientist'.

i have been a bona fide 'nut'/'fanboy' of all aquatic life since i was a young kid, and have been obssessed w/all things fish/invert related-from reading scientific articles to all aspects of husbandry in closed aquatic systems, with alot of practical experience (40 yrs) to boot- in most aspects of the fw/sw ornamental trade, both as a hobbyist, and a worker in 'the industry', including commercial hatchery management, so some familiarity w/'fish science' (at least) has been crucial/requisite to/for my involvement on the subject(s) at hand.

i've also worked as a zookeeper, and was an ostrich farmer/breeder/researcher for about a yr, worked in dairies, commercial chicken/turkey farms, and other various agriculture branches (apples, dates, cotton, avocados, citrus....it's a long list, heh)

i've been dealing with severe pain issues myself for over the past 2 yrs on a daily basis,(severe shoulder injury from getting hit by a car) and it's a subject i've been thinking about *alot*, both in the context of the 'human experience', as well as other animals'.

nice to 'meet' you

 

[Lain]

i did not suggest that whacking a fish is either a preferred, or the only way, to end a fish's life. i said it's an option, among the others i suggested., and there was far more 'ramming' being done down my throat by more than one emotional ad hominem type response in this thread.

I was a bit taken back at the thought of whacking a pet to death, but I've come full around after reading your post. If my fish is not going to make it, I might as well give it the quickest death possible.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I don't know if they feel pain and I no one will ever know for sure. I err on the side of caution and try to provide the most painless death possible.

I've only had to do it once with a turbo snail. He was way past the point of no return and death was inevitable. I could have thrown him in the trash, or flushed him, but I decided to put him in the freezer based on the advice of some forum members.

If there is even a chance that the animal will feel pain, I'm willing to take the extra few minutes to dispatch them humanely.

 

[rrasco]

All we are saying is utilize as peaceful a method as possible...
I would not take a mallet or cleaver to my dog...

Completely different situation. Would you put your dog in a freezer or drown it in clove oil?

Let's just put it this way, if I'm terminally ill and you are capable of taking me out in a single whack...have at it. I don't want to freeze, suffocate, or asphyxiate. Take me out, quick.

 

[humaguy]

Completely different situation. Would you put your dog in a freezer or drown it in clove oil?

Let's just put it this way, if I'm terminally ill and you are capable of taking me out in a single whack...have at it. I don't want to freeze, suffocate, or asphyxiate. Take me out, quick.

Clearly, I was making an analogy regarding pets...in this thread we are discussing euthanizing our pets, fish, in the most humane way possible, and discussing if there is a proper route medicinally speaking to accomplish this...bashing/cleaving a fish that I might have raised and kept, in some instances for longer than I have had a dog, my pinktail lived to almost 17 and blueface almost 20, personally for me, would be tough if not impossible...when my pets, dogs, reach the end I take the medicially proven way...I do not step outside and use a pistol...I do, what is best for me and my best friend, nobody else...I am totally guilty of anthropomorphic behavior with my pets and I wouldn't have it any other way...

 

[humaguy]

Vitz, I totally appreciate your opinion and enjoy this open-minded discussion. You seem to be an objective person and I can understand your POV. My education is science based and so I understand your need for facts.
Unfortunately, as of today, there is not enough research being done about fish pain. I'm sure there are more pressing issues to study. This is what I know, and hope to provide some links to bolster my argument. I'll start by saying that I can't find a paper that I can objectively trust that says fish feel pain. Pain, even from a human standpoint, is a very subjective topic. I don't know your background/scientific education so I apologize in advance if I sound condescending.
We know that there has to be pain receptors for a being to perceive (leaving out the anthropomorphistic word "feel") pain. One type of pain receptor is called opioid receptor (which there are four types). One of the many functions of this receptors is to perceive pain. Sussane Dreborg, et al, discusses the evolution of vertebrate opiod receptors including bony fishes.
Abstract:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/40/15487.short

and Xia Li, et al, describe how opiod receptors are found in vertebrates (including rudimentally in fish) but not in invertebrates (your ant question )
Abstract:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001457939601126X

Substance P is a neurotransmitter that has been associatied with inflammatory processes and pain. Von Euler and Ostlund found levels of substance P in cod and dogfish
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1509612/?page=1

So does that mean that fish sense pain? I honestly can tell you that I don't know; however, the wiring is there for them to do so. Maybe more like a simple circuit than a complex computer but it is still there.
That is why I err on the side of caution.

Excellent post..thanks for the info!