reef_shadow
New member
Is it a hybrid or just a variation in color? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzlAUCGed10
Hybrid Queen angelfish?
- Thread starter reef_shadow
- Start date
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Especially since Clarions and queens are found in different oceans.
ccampbell57
Premium Member
Bingo! That is just a dark variant of a queen. Whoever is trying to sell it as a clarion hybid should be :uzi:
ccampbell57
Premium Member
Way to say what you think Chris
Who me? Never:strooper:
Cantonesefish
with active cooling
Unless it was captive bred. Which would be even more :eek2::eek2::eek2:
rachenbrazil
Member
No hybrid at all. Just yellow/orange form of regular queen similar to those found in recife area here in Brazil .
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
Anyone have pictures of what that variant looks like as an adult?
AngelAddict
New member
I don't believe its a variant/morph at all. Brazilian queens are just better colored IMO. Reason being behind this is only queens are there,no blues to hybridize with.
lhm nole
New member
That is what I was told by a wholesaler in LA and I had a brazilian queen(angel) and it was stunning but due to my stupidity I lost her.
Psionicdragon
New member
don't knwo about clarions, but queens do have streamers.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
This seems like an excessive statement to me. I agree that Brazilian Queen tend to have more yellow and orange to them, but to claim it's because the species is being "washed out" by hybridizing with blues? Do you have any evidence or data to back this up? I just sometimes get tired of the immediate and quick "accusations" of hybridization. IMO, Brazilian queens are colored that way because of simple genetics, the same way the St. Pauls Rocks queens are colored like koi.
AngelAddict
New member
Ha, yeah let me pull my years of research and data out of my pocket. I can understand your frustration with the hybridization craze lately. Its getting old and annoying that everyone who hassle fish that doesn't look exactly like what its supposed to, its automatically a hybrid...BS! However the blues and queens situation is a little different. Queen are found from Brazil to Florida, generally they don't go much north then that. While blues can be found as north as Long Island sometimes(crazy!)
to Florida, but not much south then that can we agree on that? No blues in Brazil and no queens say past the Carolina's? The Townsend appears to be a hybrid of both the queen and blue,I know you'll disagree and say there's no proof, maybe You need to DNA test for yourself instead of just arguing it. The biggest question is some seem to have more features of the queen or blue, which suggests (not fact) that maybe in the ancestry of the fish, there was some hybridization, the fish isn't 50/50. So a queen from Brazil will have no blue ancestry and a different look then most (not all) queens in say the keys, Where hybridization occurs mort frequently. If you think the two don't create a hybrid, where do some of the blues get their crown, where do some queens get there more yellowish color from? Again this is all speculation gathered from my own research, mainly from fellow hobbyists because I to am curious of the color situation. Now I may not have DNA testing results to back this, but do you have DNA testing results to disapprove it? This site is all about everyone's opinions, knowledge and sharing. Anyone can take my opinions/knowledge with a grain of salt,I don't know nearly enough as I'd like, don't pretend to know it all, but I know enough to say clearly That is not a hybrid queen, especially with a clarion
to Florida, but not much south then that can we agree on that? No blues in Brazil and no queens say past the Carolina's? The Townsend appears to be a hybrid of both the queen and blue,I know you'll disagree and say there's no proof, maybe You need to DNA test for yourself instead of just arguing it. The biggest question is some seem to have more features of the queen or blue, which suggests (not fact) that maybe in the ancestry of the fish, there was some hybridization, the fish isn't 50/50. So a queen from Brazil will have no blue ancestry and a different look then most (not all) queens in say the keys, Where hybridization occurs mort frequently. If you think the two don't create a hybrid, where do some of the blues get their crown, where do some queens get there more yellowish color from? Again this is all speculation gathered from my own research, mainly from fellow hobbyists because I to am curious of the color situation. Now I may not have DNA testing results to back this, but do you have DNA testing results to disapprove it? This site is all about everyone's opinions, knowledge and sharing. Anyone can take my opinions/knowledge with a grain of salt,I don't know nearly enough as I'd like, don't pretend to know it all, but I know enough to say clearly That is not a hybrid queen, especially with a clarion
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Ha, yeah let me pull my years of research and data out of my pocket. I can understand your frustration with the hybridization craze lately. Its getting old and annoying that everyone who hassle fish that doesn't look exactly like what its supposed to, its automatically a hybrid...BS! However the blues and queens situation is a little different. Queen are found from Brazil to Florida, generally they don't go much north then that. While blues can be found as north as Long Island sometimes(crazy!)
to Florida, but not much south then that can we agree on that? No blues in Brazil and no queens say past the Carolina's? The Townsend appears to be a hybrid of both the queen and blue,I know you'll disagree and say there's no proof, maybe You need to DNA test for yourself instead of just arguing it. The biggest question is some seem to have more features of the queen or blue, which suggests (not fact) that maybe in the ancestry of the fish, there was some hybridization, the fish isn't 50/50. So a queen from Brazil will have no blue ancestry and a different look then most (not all) queens in say the keys, Where hybridization occurs mort frequently. If you think the two don't create a hybrid, where do some of the blues get their crown, where do some queens get there more yellowish color from? Again this is all speculation gathered from my own research, mainly from fellow hobbyists because I to am curious of the color situation. Now I may not have DNA testing results to back this, but do you have DNA testing results to disapprove it? This site is all about everyone's opinions, knowledge and sharing. Anyone can take my opinions/knowledge with a grain of salt,I don't know nearly enough as I'd like, don't pretend to know it all, but I know enough to say clearly That is not a hybrid queen, especially with a clarion
We will have to agree to disagree, because I dont subscribe to the assertions youre making. Yes, Blue arent necessarily found by Brazil. But Lionfish arent found in the caribbean either.....or are they? The point I am trying to make is that there is a lot of "drift" that occurs. Whether it be by inadvertant, advertant, or mistaken introdyction, waifs, or some other method, it is not appropriate (in my opinion) to assume that the blue in a Queen from the Bahamas is due to hyberidization, and this fish, or its offspring could NEVER be introduced into South American waters. Furthermore, to assume that the gold color is the "natural" color, and the blue color is the dilution is just as speculative. These types of plasticity of form occur all the time within "isolated" groups, and do not mean anything, other than the form as change minorly.
You mention the "speculation gathered from my own research, mainly from fellow hobbyists because I to am curious of the color situation". What exactly do you mean? What research? What information and data from fellow hobbyists? I dont understand what you could be collecting that would lead to you saying that Queens from Florida are blue from hybridizing with Blues.
AngelAddict
New member
I wont say agree to disagree, we have quite a few things we agree on. I agree about "drifts" and its unfortunate that they occur. I wouldn't say there are zero blues in Brazil, but the population being so low it wouldn't have as great of an impact as in the keys.
Just out of curiosity, what is your take on the color differences for different regions? You said Brazil does have more of an orange queen, and can say due to the region,but why? What's the explanation? A good hypothesis (perhaps theory in your case) is what I mentioned. And research is the search for knowledge. The knowledge I have gained, whether it be wrong or right, fact or fiction, is mainly from other hobbyists, this site,searching the internet (that can be pretty accurate as we all know) and speaking to the divers/collectors that I know in that region who are up close with these fish everyday. I have zero experience in the field, never seen a queen in the wild. I've be planning a trip to do so,but the oil spill will unfortunately alter my plans. I'd also love to collect actual data and facts on the situation and come up with an accurate result, but unfortunately that wont pay my bills. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the different regions colorations and why, since you do have quite the extensive knowledge in this hobby, I'd trust your opinion more then the average enthusiast.
Just out of curiosity, what is your take on the color differences for different regions? You said Brazil does have more of an orange queen, and can say due to the region,but why? What's the explanation? A good hypothesis (perhaps theory in your case) is what I mentioned. And research is the search for knowledge. The knowledge I have gained, whether it be wrong or right, fact or fiction, is mainly from other hobbyists, this site,searching the internet (that can be pretty accurate as we all know) and speaking to the divers/collectors that I know in that region who are up close with these fish everyday. I have zero experience in the field, never seen a queen in the wild. I've be planning a trip to do so,but the oil spill will unfortunately alter my plans. I'd also love to collect actual data and facts on the situation and come up with an accurate result, but unfortunately that wont pay my bills. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the different regions colorations and why, since you do have quite the extensive knowledge in this hobby, I'd trust your opinion more then the average enthusiast.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
In my opinion, Brazilian queens are more orange because they have proliferated this trait in a localized group. Im quite positive there are very blue queens there, just as surely there are very orange ones in Florida. However, I would suggest they have become a more prolific coloration due to the fact that this "isolated" group (by which I mean not transmigrating to the Caribbean) has just adjusted to do so. Let me make an example of another species- Regal Angelfish. The specimens from the Indian Ocean and Red Sea are known to have very yellow chests, whereas the grey chested Indo Pacific ones look easily and blatantly different. What causes this? Hybridization with another angel species to cause a yellow chest? Obviously not. The individuals in the Indian and Red Sea simply have had this trait proliferated, while the Indo has had their trait proliferated. There is no necessary immediate causes, except the traits has been naturally selected for within these species' isolated groups (from one another). And as I said before, this plasticity of form does not mean anything, except the form had changed minorly.
Just my opinion.
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