I intend to do no water changes in a large system.

[joelespinoza]

There are all kinds of things accumulating and depleting from a reef system, and aside from N and P, an ATS only makes depletion worse as the algae take up ions such as iron.

That is exactly what I meant in my last post when I said this:

The hardest part about a system where you never change the water is keeping the water chemistry correct without water changes.

However, there are people who never do water changes and have nice reef tanks. I am not saying they have perfect chemistry, but they make it work well enough to keep their inhabitants happy year after year.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Happy Reefing.

 

[jacob.morgan78]

Uh Oh... Randy chimed in! He has to update now!! Right?? ;-)

 

[joelespinoza]

While an ATS might be An OK way to export N and P

Honestly I feel silly talking to you after reading so many of the amazing articles you have written, but you say that like there is something better to export N and P, are you refering to water changes or some other filtration type?

And you are absoutely right about the iron, from what I have read, algae screens seem to be the first thing noticably effected by that particular ion. If your algae filter stops growning correctly (yellow instead of green) and all other parameters (light, flow and N+P) are there, the next thing to do is all a small dosage of iron and see if it gets better.

So while iron it is a known issue, it is not a unsurmountable one, I am sure there are other things that eventually run low or build up to harmful levels (copper immediately comes to mind). So the end question is not should you or should you not do water changes, it would be how often should you do water changes with a ATS filter.

Clearly some people, due to their tank inhabitants and/or feeding habits, can several years (or longer) with no obvious ill effects. Like everything, I am sure there is a range, the top and bottom of that range has simply not been discovered yet, at least to my knowledge.

So in the end saying "No more water changes" is really a misnomer, every system has to have water changes eventually, every drop of water in the global oceans is eventually changed (on an average of around 2600 years if I remember correctly from my oceanography class). I seriously doubt any man made tanks currently in existance will make it that long between water changes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Honestly I feel silly talking to you after reading so many of the amazing articles you have written, but you say that like there is something better to export N and P, are you refering to water changes or some other filtration type?

.

I'm not sure I claimed there was a better N and P export method, but among competitors to ATS I'd include organic carbon dosing, GFO and other phosphate binders, macroalgae, large rock filled refugia, and skimming. I use all of those on my system.

 

[KingAmir]

Hi MadReefist,

I think it is possible to not do WC. But it is in a mature tank only. The key to success is Get NP undetectable via Carbon dosing and use Calcium Reactor. For the trace elements u still need to regularly add Trace Elements products to replace WC method...

FYI, i am not doing any WC for almost 6 month... all livestock seems ok.. i do dose 2 recipe and rely to Vinegar dosing to keep my NP as low as possible...for the trace elements replacement i do dose and rely on tropics marine K+ products regularly..

 

[joelespinoza]

I'm not sure I claimed there was a better N and P export method, but among competitors to ATS I'd include organic carbon dosing, GFO and other phosphate binders, macroalgae, large rock filled refugia, and skimming. I use all of those on my system.

I do love live rocks, I plan to fill my 40 gallon sump (for a 55 display) with 50-100 lbs of dry rock in the near future. I will probably have a bit of macro algae in there as well (my ATS is not super overpowered so I can grow macro), however I have yet to have anyone explain to me why a skimmer is better than a algae filter, especially with any filter feeders, a skimmer just seems to be a far more expensive and far less useful device. Is there something I am missing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

however I have yet to have anyone explain to me why a skimmer is better than a algae filter, especially with any filter feeders, a skimmer just seems to be a far more expensive and far less useful device. Is there something I am missing?

I'm not sure I'd use them for the same purpose, so it is hard to say one is "better" than the other. Skimmers provide aeration and export organics (reducing toxins and yellowing of water). ATS likely release organics and take up nitrogen and phosphorus. Both may export certain metals (like copper).

 

[joelespinoza]

I'm not sure I'd use them for the same purpose, so it is hard to say one is "better" than the other. Skimmers provide aeration and export organics (reducing toxins and yellowing of water). ATS likely release organics and take up nitrogen and phosphorus. Both may export certain metals (like copper).

Interesting, I have never personally used a skimmer. I know a bunch of people locally who do, and I have cleaned a couple, but never actually used one. Its nice to get an expert point of view on the subject of skimmers. In a normal high flow reef tank, is scrubber aeration usually considered a benifit? Most of what I have read about aeration and scrubbers is on the lengths people go through (sump baffles etc) to avoid micro bubbles, but I just dont know much about it.

On the subject of organics released or exported I trust you know far more than I do about the subject, however I think the historical yellowing of water experienced from scrubber owners was more from poor maintaince habits than anything else. As long as you clean a scrubbers somewhat regularly and take them out of the tank to do so, I dont think it is an issue. Certainly I have never noticed it, and I ran carbon for the first time only recently after treating for a nudibranch problem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not sure what type of scrubber you mean, an ATS, or a CO2 scrubber.

ATS will tend to raise pH from photosynthesis. If pH is already high from using limewater, then the pH may get too high without the aeration provided by a skimmer. Of course, that depends on CO2 levels in your home and the other tank factors. In my case, I shut down my skimmer for more than a month (no ATS), and the clear problem for me was the tank pH got too high.

A CO2 scrubber on the inlet of a skimmer is a good way to deal with excess CO2 in your home air. Lots of tank aeration doesn't help that problem and might actually hurt it with respect to low pH.

It is often hard to notice yellowed water without side by side comparisons, but even with skimmers and GAC the water will often yellow (as can be seen by initiating ozone on such a system; that is what I documented on my system).

 

[joelespinoza]

Not sure what type of scrubber you mean, an ATS, or a CO2 scrubber.

Sorry I was clearly not awake when I wrote that last post. I meant skimmer, dont know why on earth I said scrubber, let me correct that. On a side note I didnt even know CO2 scrubbers were a thing for aquariums, when I say scrubber I mean ATS (Which is a bit of a misnomer because GHA is the objective now, not turf algae), unless I am just having a brain fart and accidently just type completely the wrong thing.

Interesting, I have never personally used a skimmer. I know a bunch of people locally who do, and I have cleaned a couple, but never actually used one. Its nice to get an expert point of view on the subject of skimmers. In a normal high flow reef tank, is skimmer aeration usually considered a benifit? Most of what I have read about aeration and skimmers is on the lengths people go through (sump baffles etc) to avoid micro bubbles, but I just dont know much about it.

ATS will tend to raise pH from photosynthesis. If pH is already high from using limewater, then the pH may get too high without the aeration provided by a skimmer. Of course, that depends on CO2 levels in your home and the other tank factors. In my case, I shut down my skimmer for more than a month (no ATS), and the clear problem for me was the tank pH got too high.

Hmmm I will have to pay closer attention to PH, mine is usually around 8.5 (I just checked it and it is 8.2), but I dont check it that often. I top off about 1 gallon of roughly 50% kalk per day (~1tsp kalk + 40 ml vinegar/gallon) however on my particular setup I have a LOT of surface area, my 40 gallon sump+55 gallon DT comes out to 1272 square inches of surface area, and my algae screens each have an area of 10.5"x11" with a high rate of flow accross them (~35-40GPH/linear inch) so thats another 462 square inches of surface area.

So ~1734 square inches exposed to atmosphere, for a 55 display, that combined with with the fact that I only feed around 2 cubes/day, thus lowering algae access to nutrients and photosynthesis, probably keeps my PH in check on my particular setup. I will have to keep closer watch on it when I up my kalk dosage.

It is often hard to notice yellowed water without side by side comparisons, but even with skimmers and GAC the water will often yellow (as can be seen by initiating ozone on such a system; that is what I documented on my system).

Interesting, I found your article on ozone, I will have to read it later today. As always, thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it.

 

[Bugcrusher]

frre sand/coral/shell gravel

frre sand/coral/shell gravel

Try Ft Desoto park out by the gulf pier...lots of nice clean sand/coral gravel there..all free for the taking...yep I got some of it several months ago, I did ask the ranger fellows and they said no problem as long as I didn't bring a dump truck and backhoe to take it out, a few buckets were just fine with them. I will probably go this route without all the store bought stuff. ATS is great way to bind and export wastes. A sizable DSB should do the trick for most of the rest..will follow and observe. GOOD LUCK!

 

[ILikeTurtles]

I wasn't going to worry quite as much about coral related details (trace minerals etc) right away. I wanted to let the system mature, have fun with critters, and then when the time was right and I'd be confident the system wouldn't kill anenomes / corals then worry about all that.

'Problem' is I scored bigtime on some awesome liverock from Gulf-View here in Tampa. He gave us a SWEET deal on some of the rock.
http://www.gulf-view.com/
I HIGHLY recommend him (Dale) and his rock.

I'll post some pictures soon. Not only are there at least a couple different types of corals on many of them, but plants, critters and other strange fauna... including stationary sea cucumbers... and these huge stationary clam creatures.

When we were taking them out of the box at home it was like THE ROCKS WERE MOVING.

After several days of studying them, I realized these huge things that look like rocks and move when poked are actually some type of clam. It was hard to figure out as their opening side faces the live rock itself. Theres 6 large ones, and at least one (very lively) small one. I've never seen anything like them. They have plants, coralline algae, barnacles, coral, and odd shapes that look and feel like the rock they're attached to. One even has an impressive sized coral cluster on its back that also attaches to the rock behind it.

After studying I finally noticed their mouth openings. Since they face the rock, most of what you'd normally expect to see for their mouth is attached to the rock. Only about 1" of the mouth is visible at one end. I can't wait to get these identified.


So with all of this exotic life on these rocks I'm going to have to get into suppliments sooner than later. One of the used setups I acquired for all of this came with big bottles of Seachem calcium and pH buffer and magnesium that should last a while. I have some liquid B vitamin bottles already. But the trace elements, iodide, etc will be important soon. For all that I hope to find one good product that has everything and isnt crazy expensive, and lasts.

There's so much fun you can have before even considering corals I wasn't worried about that budget buster (to do it GOOD), but having some nice starter corals on these rocks to begin with should be a nice gauge if the system supports corals, without having to buy them and find out.

I do realize there are risks in using so many types of WILD stuff / media. But I'm not too worried about it doing it all from the beginning instead of adding things to running systems.

funny i was reading this and was saying to my self this sounds alot like dale, then i read this section looked at your location and started cracking up. I also have done business with dale and also highly recomend him, he is a cool *** guy and has unbeatable prices and rock. Cut out the middle man (LFS) and go to the supplier dale everyone from central fl.

 

[wayne in norway]

FYI, i am not doing any WC for almost 6 month... all livestock seems ok.. i do dose 2 recipe and rely to Vinegar dosing to keep my NP as low as possible...for the trace elements replacement i do dose and rely on tropics marine K+ products regularly..

You do realise there is eventually an issue with putting in 2 part and not taking any salt water out. You're adding ions of Ca, Cl, Na and HCO3, and you'll have Na and Cl left over. You will get saltier and saltier.
I am too stupid not to do water changes. I cannot manage all these very complicated systems with lots of lights, egg crate and different sump chambers for growing algae. I just run a skimmer, spend a half hour changing water once a week and it works.

 

[Paul B]

Several layers of course, and then 'blue' filters floss, above layers of 100 and then 50 micron + Aquamaxx "Pureflo" filter screens (top of the tower).
-40oz Boyd Chemi-Pure.
-250ml Brightwell PhospahtR (rechargable).
-Brightwell Neo Zeolite (probably 1L at a time).
-500ml Seachem Purigen (rechargable).
-Seachem Renew (probably 1L at a time).
-Seachem Cuprisorb (rechargable).
-8fl NP BioPellets.
-1.5L of activated carbon (to start off with, as it came with some of this equipment I've acquired).
-12g of CPR Bio-Bale Media.

It's your system and you can do anything you want with it. I personally think it will be a maintenance nightmare.
I don't use any of those things you listed. Not 1.
But good luck

 

[qwuintus]

I think it's a way overpriced hobby to begin with. Considering the price gouging going on with at every turn ($200 for a 30g sump box, sheesh), I'd like to show it doesn't always have to be like that. Between buying / bartering for used equipment, DIY, FL aquacultured LR, locally (& sustainably) collected whatever-I-can-find-that-works, maximum biological diversity, patience, esoteric plant sciences, brainstorming and frugal practices combined with my procurement skills I intend to prove that a grand system can be achieved 'on-the-cheap'.

A 'grand' system can very well be achieved on the cheap, but will it be marketable?

I don't think the majority of people interested in keeping coral and fish will purchase something that is very complicated, large, and looks rather 'rigged'.

Though you may discover that your system does work, it doesn't provide any aesthetic value or design in the sense that simplicity and function were valued in the process.

If there were a way to package your findings in an affordable, sustainable, and aesthetically pleasing system it would be a dream come true, but unfortunately I think only two out of the three characteristics can be met. Which is why this hobby is truly expensive for those who wish to maintain simple and beautiful ecosystems.

 

[redtop03]

I don't think the majority of people interested in keeping coral and fish will purchase something that is very complicated, large, and looks rather 'rigged'.

I may have missed it but I didn't see anywhere he was trying to sell this idea....this is an experiment as best as I can figure and an extension of the hobby into more diversity...

everyone seems to be looking at the hardware for the beauty and not the planned bio-diversity of this system...

I agree,it may not be the best decor for a living room as it looks more like a fish store,but,from a hobbyist perspective,I think it looks really cool

That monstrosity of tanks looks terrible but if that's what you need to do to be able to be in the hobby then go for it.

beauty is in the eye of the beer holder :lmao:

this is a hobby not a beauty contest,more tanks with different creatures is interesting to me,I don't see anything ugly here just the ability to add more diversity to his system

Taking things straight from the ocean and into your tanks is a terrible idea.

tell that to Paul B with his 40+ year old reef tank

MadReefist,I like what you are doing,not sure I fully understand all of it but I'm following along

 

[Paul B]

Taking things straight from the ocean and into your tanks is a terrible idea.

Doh, I knew I was doing something terrible. :facepalm:

 

[redtop03]

Doh, I knew I was doing something terrible. :facepalm:

:lmao: I figured you missed that comment....

 

[qwuintus]

I understood this idea isn't meant to be sold, but how do I say this...

I think the project would be more compelling if people could look at it and instantly be able to relate to it. That being if it were merely packaged in a suitable size for the common living room. Interesting nevertheless... of course.