I split my carpet (unwillingly)

[rkelman]

I downsized my tank so my Blue Haddoni Carpet had to go. The problem is it was imbedded in a 30+lb rock. I decided one way or another it is coming out. (ive tried in the past to get this carpet to move using all the usual methods with no success) I pulled the rock out and took a hammer and big screwdriver and split the rock. Which in turn split the carpet. It was still stuck in the rock so I had to split the rock again which split the carpet again too. I put the pieces in a plastic container in the same tank. I was a bit worried about it nuking the tank but not that much. Frankly I dont put alot of faith in the stories you hear about that. I was right. (phew) No losses to corals or inverts and fish. Here's some pics of the carpet. It seems to be recovering as fast as BTAs Ive split. This carpet was probably 18inches across.

These are just after splitting.

Here they are a few days later. You can see they are already forming the mouth and foot.

This smaller piece doesnt look so hot though. Ill get some more pics in a few days I dont want to disturb them too much.

 

[Nebthet]

Let me know how that smaller piece does rob. I have been considering a carpet anemone for my tank... with a big upgrade to come in the future and a small one like that would be perfect size right now.

I am also really glad you are documenting this, as I have heard about people intentionally cutting their carpet nems up because they get too big, but I have never seen the results afterwards.

 

[rkelman]

K will do. I'll keep taking pics and posting them as they progress. I've never seen anyone document splitting a haddoni successfully either. Which is why I'm doing it

(hopefully successfully)

 

[velvetelvis]

That's pretty amazing (and a testament to your husbandry, since the unintentional clones seem to be recovering). Keep us posted!

 

[BonsaiNut]

Haddonis are (in my opinion) the hardiest of all clown anemones. I had a haddoni once that was in a temporary tank (during a tank move) and managed to get past a rock wall and wrap itself around a heater. It was burned almost completely in half and was more mush than anemone when I found it. Long story short, it completely recovered to the point that you could never tell it had ever been injured.

Good luck with all the pieces. I hope they make it. Keep them under bright lighting. Remember - they cannot eat until they heal their mouths and their internal digestive systems so all they have for healing energy is zooxanthellae. Also (and this is just me) consider tossing an airstone in there with them for extra water movement and oxygen exchange. The first week or so they will try to heal - it is weeks two-four that you have to worry about. If they are still alive after a month you may be out of the woods.

 

[kkiel02]

Uh oh. Best of luck. The large one looks pretty good.

 

[bradleym]

Haddonis are (in my opinion) the hardiest of all clown anemones. I had a haddoni once that was in a temporary tank (during a tank move) and managed to get past a rock wall and wrap itself around a heater. It was burned almost completely in half and was more mush than anemone when I found it. Long story short, it completely recovered to the point that you could never tell it had ever been injured.

Good luck with all the pieces. I hope they make it. Keep them under bright lighting. Remember - they cannot eat until they heal their mouths and their internal digestive systems so all they have for healing energy is zooxanthellae. Also (and this is just me) consider tossing an airstone in there with them for extra water movement and oxygen exchange. The first week or so they will try to heal - it is weeks two-four that you have to worry about. If they are still alive after a month you may be out of the woods.

What happens after 2 weeks? Do they just decide to stop healing? Why is that period the most worrisome?

 

[BonsaiNut]

What happens after 2 weeks? Do they just decide to stop healing? Why is that period the most worrisome?

I'm not 100% sure. I have seen it happen several times - damaged anemones that start to heal, but then fade and die. If I would have to describe it, they lose healing "momentum". When an anemone is cut in half I have never seen it die outright; both halves curl up and try to protect the damaged area and heal. So in addition to personal experience I have seen tons of people post on this forum about how they cut an anemone in half and it looks good for the first few days - and then you never hear from them again (i.e. the anemone dies).

If I had to guess it is due to one of two things:
(1) They start to heal based on stored energy, and since they are unable to gain new energy (because they can't eat and internal circulation may be impaired due to damage), they don't have enough energy to finish healing.
(2) They pick up bacterial infections that they cannot fend off.

I lean towards #2 above, which is why if I ever tried to set up a commercial venture making clones I would have a very sterile setup running ozone and UV. It seems once anemones pick up bacterial infections they have a hard time fending it off, particularly if they are already weak or stressed.

It helps to keep an eye on what people are doing in the aquaculture forums - particularly when it comes to people fragging corallimorphs. It seems they have better success rates using antibacterial agents when cutting - even things like a basic iodine solution.

 

[jon1985]

any updates? how are they doing?

 

[lps1212]

That's crazy u have what 4 nems now what will u do with all those nems would u ship one to jersey

 

[rkelman]

Ok I've been a little lazy with the updates I admit. I took some pics tonight. The smaller of the 3 didn't make it. I scooped out the foul smelling goo tonight. The other 2 look great. They are recovering nicely and the mouths are forming well. I think they are going to make it for sure. I don't know about the 2 week thing. I've cloned alot of nems and never lost one that looked good after 2 weeks. In my experience (bta's) If they look good after a week they are good to go.

"That's crazy u have what 4 nems now what will u do with all those nems would u ship one to jersey"

It was 3. Now its 2 and no

 

[BonsaiNut]

I don't know about the 2 week thing. I've cloned alot of nems and never lost one that looked good after 2 weeks. In my experience (bta's) If they look good after a week they are good to go.

That's because BTA's reproduce asexually. You're comparing two very different creatures - haddoni's do not reproduce asexually.

 

[BonsaiNut]

That's crazy u have what 4 nems now what will u do with all those nems would u ship one to jersey

It was one. Now it's one cut in half. We will have to see if he ends up with two. Let's hope so, but it's a little early to be placing orders There's a reason why people are propagating BTA's and not haddonis; if haddonis were this easy to clone, there would be a lot of them available for sale from hobbyists.

I don't want this post to sound harsh because I WANT to see this anemone survive and become two individuals. It will be an uncommon event that will have been well-captured on film.

 

[rkelman]

"That's because BTA's reproduce asexually. You're comparing two very different creatures - haddoni's do not reproduce asexually."

There is speculation that Haddoni's can reproduce asexually. With several documented cases of budding (not surviving buds but still budding) left in the wild this could possibly be a reproductive method although a rare one. I don't feel they are all that different. Reproduction aside they are very similar in anatomy and their healing ability.

"I don't want this post to sound harsh because I WANT to see this anemone survive and become two individuals. It will be an uncommon event that will have been well-captured on film."

I'm hoping they survive as well. Your post doesn't come across as harsh IMO. It would be a pretty cool accomplishment to have documented it. No matter what its really interesting (to me at least) If this works I might consider doing it voluntarily to one of the halves (many months down the road) to see if this was a fluke of if this particular morph is able to withstand a manual divide like this on a fairly regular basis.

 

[shabreeson]

"There is speculation that Haddoni's can reproduce asexually. With several documented cases of budding (not surviving buds but still budding) left in the wild this could possibly be a reproductive method although a rare one. I don't feel they are all that different. Reproduction aside they are very similar in anatomy and their healing ability."

The fact that it might be a rare reproductive method might shed light on why splitting haddinis is rarely successful. The reason bta's have so much success with splitting is because they have done it millions of times and probably have evolved efficient immune defenses/healing practices. Haddini flesh is also noticeably different than a bta, considerably thicker. Thicker flesh alone may mean it more time consuming for the two sides to completely fuse, allowing more opportunistic bacteria in.

I think BonsaiNut's antibacterial approach makes a lot of sense because of these reasons.

Considering everyone agrees haddini's ability to heal is considerable. Haddini could be on the edge of that evolutionary step. This is a wonderful opportunity for a pro-haddini keeper to give it a shot.

Thank you again rkelman

 

[BonsaiNut]

I think BonsaiNut's antibacterial approach makes a lot of sense because of these reasons.

Also check out the thread called "pedal laceration in gigantea" or something similar to see some amazing results of antibacterial treatment of a gigantea that I would have declared 100% dead.

 

[shabreeson]

Also check out the thread called "pedal laceration in gigantea" or something similar to see some amazing results of antibacterial treatment of a gigantea that I would have declared 100% dead.

Just read it. Those are some amazing results. His theory of bacterial imbalance being the reason for many gigantea deaths seems very sound. I think it's also possible that symbiotic bacteria that normally do no harm to the gigantea may become opportunistic when the health is compromised. I know the same can happen to humans.

Any updates?

 

[BonsaiNut]

Bump for a one week update?

 

[BonsaiNut]

All dead?

 

[rkelman]

Nope they are still recovering. Sorry for the late update. They are doing well. the mouth / foot areas have healed almost completely. They are looking really good but I can tell they need some more light. Sometime in Jan I may be able to move them to a tank with T5's and no live rock for them to get stuck in. (I want to be able to remove them) They are now very sticky which is a good sign. The female clown moved in as soon as I opened the container and started defending the anemone's from me.