I think Ich is a farce

[Sk8r]

Most of the fish that most readily get ich are fish that normally swim far, as in several hundred feet) from the sandy bottom. Fish that live on or burrow in the sandbed in shallower water are far more resistent, and slimier. Ich spends part of its life cycle in the sandbed. It's not catastrophic in the wild. In our tanks, it gets a chance at a population that has fewer defenses. As a hobbyist, if you don't take artificial precautions to keep it out of your tank your chances are totally that: chance, luck, and whether or not you bought from a shop and distributor that already apply precautions, as many of the large operations do. Understand that people are taking precautions for you, and that nature has some of its own.
The fewer times you add a fish to your tank---the less often you risk getting the parasite.
The longer the parasite goes without feeding and breeding, the less likely you have any surviving in your tank, whether encysted or not. Some of us don't add fish every year. This is, ideally, a case of getting fish you like, being sure they're ich free, and keeping those fish in a healthy tank that doesn't change much except in its surplus corals.

 

[laurie64]

Tony, If you were talking about my post, it has been personal experience. The tank in question is a fully set up 75 gal qt. I have had problems getting rid of ich for a year. Sat fallow for almost 4 months except for hermits that stayed in it. Three days after putting a fish from a bare bottom 15 gal qt tank, the new fish broke out. Clean fish for 6 weeks. Reason for such a large qt is that it was supposed to be for larger angels before they went on to my display tank.

 

[gone fishin]

Laurie no I was not refering to your post. I am sorry for the confusion. I was merely trying to see if the OP had any sources or if it is his theory. I would like to read the articles or studies if there was any. Again sorry for the confusion.

 

[Paul B]

This is a wierd thread, thats about all I will comment

 

[KCombs]

This is a wierd thread, thats about all I will comment

Mind if I quote you? :worried:

 

[swcc]

Perhaps weird...but I get the OP's point. Why is one suffering from ick problems... perhaps it is the nature of trusting in reefing beliefs/solutions and the junk science that is married to it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The OP has not developed a point and in fact (if anything) has contradicted his own logic several times over while attempting to play the role of an intellectual protagnist tossing rhetorical questions out to his ignorant students.

 

[Osteoclast]

He has unfortunately provided only empirical data (N =1). He has noted a failure of recommended techniques with regard to his own system to eradicate ick. The question remains as to why the protzoa reappearred not that the entire system of treatment is flawed. He has only shown that his technique of Ick eradication should be open to question. The question is therefore why? Typically, bias gives unexpected results. What are his methods leading to poor results and are his conclusions accurate?

 

[dzfish17]

I know I don't have all the answers, neither does anyone else.

You are right that you dont have any answers but your ignorance is not helping. The treatments do work... youre just bitter because you failed to use them properly.

 

[swcc]

I view Ich as a barometer for stress factors in an aquarium and nothing more. In it's ability to "pop up" in poor environmental conditions I actually view it as being beneficial. I do realize this barometer has the ability to kill fish, but this is not without the aid of the original offending source.

So, why?

I see this above as his point...
Frankly I think ick wiping out a tank, or established fish getting ick from a new fish or it suddenly propping up again as signs that your aquarium is just not doing all that hot and your fish aren't in that great of shape either because of it.
This goes beyond chemistry and into the microbiological processes going on in your aquarium and it's cause and effect.
Also this this is not about the new stressed out fish that you just got so much as the established 'healthy' fish. However even the stressed out "ick magnet" fish, unless purchased in an unhealthy condition, should at worse show ick for a maybe day or two and then it be gone(and maybe even not at all).

 

[grcforce327]

I know I don't have all the answers, neither does anyone else.

You have yet to stay at a "Holiday Inn Express"!:lolspin:

 

[laugh]

At this point I just have to laugh...

You called?

 

[Made2Rock]

James,

I got to agree with BeanAnimal. In fact when you look at the ocean and see the way a fish behaves most fish SWIM and not 10' or 20' a day. Were talking a look way. so when this parasite goes back into the water to find a fish it has a long way to go.

Try diving if you want to see what the world of the fish is really like. I watched a string of 5 french angels swim from a long way off, pass me and keep on going the whole time staying 10' off the bottom and 5' off the coral. My point is this in nature it is very hard for a parasite to find a fish, this is not the case in the boxes we create.

Joe

 

[Tmoriarty]

Can you live with a tank that has ICH.... sure you can. Do you have to.... nope. Can ICH kill your fish.... it sure can. Will it always kill your fish.... nope.

So what is your point in all this??? seroiusly???

Just because you.

a) made a mistake in your treatment procedures

or

b) have an extremely resistant strain of ICH

does not mean that the treatment procedures are not quality procedures to help remove ICH from a system where your fish are infected. I treated every fish in my 203g for ICH and have not seen a spot since, does this mean my tank is ICH free, not sure. It is always possible that I have re-introduced it into the tank on some sort of substrate, whether it be a coral or a small piece of rock.

Also to everyone who is QT'ing your fish, and assumes this means ICH will not get in your system. If you QT a fish for two months and they Have ICH, you may never know they have it. The simple fact is that some fish live fine with the ICH parasite and only show symptoms in any visual manifestation in a stressful environment (IE added to other fish, potential harrassment).

If you truely want to put fish in your tank that are free of ICH I would look into performing Hypo or Copper treatment on every new fish for a few weeks prior to adding it to your tank. That is your best bet to keep ICH out of your tank, even through adding new fish.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Every time I read an ich thread I have to chuckle because not many people seem to realize that you cannot fully eradicate ich every time. Sometimes, yes. But I have read that ich can attach to the gills of a fish and secrete (or something like that) a coating that is impervious to medication and other treatments, where it can live indefinitely.

So while it is good practice to try and make sure you don't introduce ich into your system, especially when you take into account the fact that there are extremely virulent strains in existence, you just can't win every fight.

 

[Augustus]

My reaction to this thread!

My reaction to this thread!

 

[oldsaint]

But I have read that ich can attach to the gills of a fish and secrete (or something like that) a coating that is impervious to medication and other treatments, where it can live indefinitely.

I would be very interested in reading an article about a strain of ich that can sustain a life cycle only in the trophont stage, while skipping the other stages protomont, tomont, tomites, heronts.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

This was posted on a thread about Ich on my local forum

First Stage

1. Tomont Stage
Trophonts which have burrowed into the gills & formed cysts, protected by gill mucus.
Trophonts can live in the cyst embedded in the gills almost indefinitely.
No effective treatment at this stage.

 

[oldsaint]

That's a little confusing because Trophonts are the feeding stage located on the fish and the Tomont Stage is the reproductive stage located on the substrate. At least that is how I read it.

http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getImageDetail&image_soid=FIGURE 2&document_soid=FA164&document_version=1536230716

From my readings of peer reviewed articles or published papers I would agree the Trophonts are the most resistant to treatments but I would have to disagree that they live "almost indefinitely". All the info I've come across shows that stage only last 3-7 days.

Don't mean to argue with you directly. I wouldn't consider myself qualified enough to argue this point. But, I do like to stay informed and read as much as possible, limiting my readings to other than anecdotal evidence.

 

[KCombs]

while we are on the subject of comprehensive "reef husbandry"....

the Ich tromodonts will perish if a series of well placed "ion braclets" are installed around your return pipes & sump inflow :bigeyes: