ICH, again, Please help

[SecretiveFish]

You all have helped me before in getting rid of the ICH in my 150g, but... despite not adding ANY fish, my 150g has it again. It must have come in on a coral even though we did CoralRX before adding the new corals. I am so mad I could spit. :mad2: This tank is on the fast track to becoming a FOWLR after this...

My fish are still eating well and acting fairly normal, but a couple of them look like they swam through powdered sugar so obviously they are not able to handle the infection on their own. The tank does have a UV sterilizer and I use Selecon to soak the food I feed, but despite this, my fish need treatment.

Finally to my question, would you attempt the Tank Transfer Method or would you just treat with Cupramine again (30 days of 0.35ppm)? There are nine fish total: marine betta, indigo hamlet, scarlet pinstripe wrasse, clownfish pair, flame hawkfish, lemonpeel mimic tang, scopas tang, and white cheek tang.

 

[joesfiddy]

I'm doing tank transfer method right now for the 1st time and I like it better than cupramine.

 

[snorvich]

Powdered sugar sounds more like velvet. Please describe fish behavior.

 

[SecretiveFish]

Oh shoot... What I saw yesterday while observing my fish looks just like this, http://www.reef-face.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic/30039-marine-velvet/
This is the first time I have had marine velvet, wonderful, just wonderful.
My fish (apart from Mr. Marine Betta) are scratching occasionally, a bit lethargic, hiding a bit more than usual, but generally eating OK.

Well, TTM is out... Cupramine is what I need to use, right? Can I still do the 0.35ppm for 30 days instead of the 0.5ppm? How long does 150g need to be fallow? 12 weeks like ICK?

Thanks snorvich! You saved whatever fish survive treatment. I was leaning toward the TTM and that wouldn't have helped at all and instead would have put off treatment for 14 days.

ETA: Upon further investigation, my fish are not gasping for air and honestly are not acting like they are one fin in the grave. I know it can be hard to tell from pictures, but what I saw yesterday also kind of looks like this: http://www.saltwater-aquarium-online-guide.com/image-files/ich.jpg The most infested fish are not completely coated like a powder, but instead have really, really small spots all over the place. Nonetheless, I am going to treat with Cupramine.

 

[Deinonych]

Chloroquine phosphate is the preferred treatment for velvet. There is a new product by New Life Spectrum call Ick-Shield Powder that contains CP. It is available now. Amazon carries it if you can't source it locally. Cupramine can also be used, but it's harder on the fish.

Fallow time for velvet is 6 weeks.

 

[ThRoewer]

If powdered sugar means a fine dust like appearance where you can't really distinguish individual dots then I would suspect Amyloodinium (velvet) or maybe Broklynella.

For treating this many fish against Cryptocaryon (ich) I would use hyposalinity over any medication, especially copper.

TTM would be my second treatment choice (1st prevention choice) against Cryptocaryon, but with this many and relatively large fish it may be hard to execute.

But neither hyposalinity nor TTM do anything against velvet, brook or all the other possible suspects.

So if the diagnosis is not with absolute certainty ich, I would recommend chloroquine phosphate (CP) as it kills all the possible suspects. With a FOWLR tank you could even use it in the DT - though it kills snails and several other inverts - read the chloroquine primer and Ich Shield threads.
You shouldn't use CP on pipefish and their relatives as they react negatively to it. Some wrasses have also been reported to be sensitive.

... It must have come in on a coral even though we did CoralRX before adding the new corals. ...

Coral dips do nothing against Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, Brooklynella and the like. The dips are especially ineffective against the encysted multiplying stages.
If anything coral dips may prevent flukes and other worm based diseases entering your tank, but I wouldn't bet on that either.

Any dip that would effectively kill off all possible parasite stages would for sure kill the coral first.

 

[snorvich]

Sounds like velvet, especially the reclusive behavior. The two posts above are useful information.

 

[tassod]

Its funny that i just stumbled on this thread because this is happening to me now all over again despite removing all my fish, going fallow, treating everyone and having everyone new going through TTM and prazi. Trust me, i can do more than spit right now! Although the first time for me was either velvet or flukes, this time around looks like ICH. I have decided to take no action and leave them be. I am definitely not going through this again so whatever happens, happens. I will probably get flamed for these comments but that's just how I feel. It would take a lot right now to convince me to start QT again.

 

[SecretiveFish]

tassod, you are not going to get any flack from me. My Spouse is right where you are... This will be the THIRD {insert choice word} time that I have taken his tank apart to get my fish out and treated. He is at the end of his tolerance, and this tank is going to become a FOWLR and have no corals or inverts added.
Apparently corals/inverts need quarantine 12 weeks before adding to a system!?! He is going to end up with a new bigger tank... so is not too upset! The only parameter is going to be that I will not add any fish that I care about.

My lemonpeel tang is MIA as of feeding time yesterday. We got the 57g quarantine up last night and are going to catch the remaining fish tonight. That is only going to take a couple hours. :angryfire:

 

[Wrench]

If you QT'd and still have disease then your QT protocol needs to be examined.

I prefer CP over copper. IME it's easier to dose and maintain therapeutic levels.

The tank needs to be fallow for 12 weeks for your best shot at erradicating ich. This means NOTHING that's wet can be added during this time. No corals, no fish, no inverts, no equipment can be swapped, use sterile nets, etc. Make sure that NO water is transferred between QT and main system.

 

[tassod]

I'm not going to start any arguments with anyone here on QT protocols but mine were spot on and still failed so everyone of course is free to do and follow whatever protocol they choose but as for me, i'm not, simple as that. All my fish are still eating fine and behaving normally, only got one that flashes occasionally for now but that's it. Its like the parasite does not seem to bother them so i'm just hopping it goes away in a few weeks and just live with it.

 

[Wrench]

mine were spot on

Apparently not....

 

[tassod]

Apparently not....

So you are implying that your protocols are 100% full proof and can guarantee me a disease free tank? No need for reply...we all know the answer.

 

[Wrench]

Better than yours apparently.

Fool proof? No. Proper QT takes time, patience and attention to detail. Definitely not fool proof.

I went through a similar situation last summer. Had really bad ich or velvet. Removed all of the fish, treated them in QT with CP, prazi and antibiotics. No signs of ich or other parasites yet. Everything gets QT'd before going into the tank. I can say with confidence that my system will remain disease free if I continue with my current protocols. The only thing that would change that is if there is some disease that comes through that's resistant to the medications I use.