Velvet dormant in tank for a year?
- Thread starter SMR45
- Start date
I wanted to provide a quick update. I haven't had an additional death since my Bluering died on Tuesday, so my loss count is still at 7. Some still don't look good but except for two, started to eat a bit today. Not a lot but at least something.
I'm keeping cooper at 2.0-2.2 - testing 2-3 times a day and dosing copper as necessary to keep levels consistent.
I'm keeping the tank lights off since I know there is a sensitivity to light.
I'll continue to update if you find this useful.
I'm keeping cooper at 2.0-2.2 - testing 2-3 times a day and dosing copper as necessary to keep levels consistent.
I'm keeping the tank lights off since I know there is a sensitivity to light.
I'll continue to update if you find this useful.
aikenreefkeeper
Member
Following along. Please keep posting, if you help just one person, it will be worth it.
Quick update. So far the remaining fish are still alive. I don't see evidence of the parasite on them and longer, just the damage it did. One of the two not eating still hasn't eaten yet but I think i saw the other one nibble today - can't be sure though. The others ate a little more today and seem a bit more active.
Continuing with keeping the copper in range with continuous testing and dosing as required.
Continuing with keeping the copper in range with continuous testing and dosing as required.
ThRoewer
New member
I'm kind of doubtful that a 25 W UV lamp can do a lot if anything to suppress parasites like Amyloodinium or Cryptocaryon.
From how rapidly this spread and killed fish I would assume Amyloodinium (Velvet).
Also, the way things go makes it much more likely that this parasite was somehow recently introduced and not having been dormant/masked in the tank for months. Otherwise, I would expect the fish to have more resistance and die slower, rather something like one each week and not several close to each other within a week. That sounds more like the typical avalanche effect you see with Amyloodinium being unleashed on fish without any immunity to it.
Everything points to this being recently introduced.
From how rapidly this spread and killed fish I would assume Amyloodinium (Velvet).
Also, the way things go makes it much more likely that this parasite was somehow recently introduced and not having been dormant/masked in the tank for months. Otherwise, I would expect the fish to have more resistance and die slower, rather something like one each week and not several close to each other within a week. That sounds more like the typical avalanche effect you see with Amyloodinium being unleashed on fish without any immunity to it.
Everything points to this being recently introduced.
ThRoewer
New member
One reason why I prefer feeding mysis. Those are collected from freshwater lakes.
I'm not sure if there has ever been a study done if Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium cysts can survive being frozen but I would not rule out the possibility. Cryptocaryon cysts can for sure survive cold water temperatures in a state of hibernation and produce infectious stages when the temperature rises above 19 °C again.
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The truth is we do not know if freezing makes tomonts not viable. Or at least I've never seen a study on that. I know LRS has mentioned deep freezing their food @ -24F, possibly to kill off any pathogens? But even -24F must not kill all bacteria because they tout that their food contains probiotics.
Thank you again for everyone who responded - I sincerely appreciate all of the reply's and help/advice.
Can you advise on what food you consider safe from pathogens? I only use the frozen food i mentioned - nothing fresh. I will certainly switch sources if that will help prevent this from ever happening again. And I can confirm that this did come on quickly and devastatingly fast.
Update: all of the remaining surviving fish are still ok and starting to eat a little more. Keeping cooper levels at 2.0 to 2.2
Can you advise on what food you consider safe from pathogens? I only use the frozen food i mentioned - nothing fresh. I will certainly switch sources if that will help prevent this from ever happening again. And I can confirm that this did come on quickly and devastatingly fast.
Update: all of the remaining surviving fish are still ok and starting to eat a little more. Keeping cooper levels at 2.0 to 2.2
ThRoewer
New member
While the food can't be completely ruled out as a source of this infection I would say it is rather unlikely. Far more likely is that this came in on a more common way. IMO one of the more likely paths is that your friend, when he worked on your tank, had a cyst or flagelat from another tank on him that escaped all scrutiny and made it into your tank.
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I agree the frozen food seems improbable. I just thought I would ask in case anyone had heard of it happening. It's possible it came inadvertently from my friend. It has been about four months since he was here though. My past experience with velvet was pretty immediate. I introduced the new fish, saw symptoms within a few days and had fish dying within a week or so.
This time was fairly immediate as well. Everything was fine until it wasn't - there wasn't much warning. Yes, I should have realized what is was sooner but it happened quickly.
One bit of good news is the remaining fish seem to be healing and all ate pretty well today. This isn't over but I'm now cautiously optimistic regarding the survivors. Again, I do appreciate all of the help and responses.
This time was fairly immediate as well. Everything was fine until it wasn't - there wasn't much warning. Yes, I should have realized what is was sooner but it happened quickly.
One bit of good news is the remaining fish seem to be healing and all ate pretty well today. This isn't over but I'm now cautiously optimistic regarding the survivors. Again, I do appreciate all of the help and responses.
I'm almost positive it's velvet. I agree Ich would fit better but it's usually not lethal so quickly. I first noticed obvious symptoms on my Bluering about two weeks or so ago - fine sugar like speckles that covered it's entire body. No obvious white spots, just the covering that could only be seen in certain light/angles and it had a sheen. The mimic tang didn't have the speckle covering that I could see but he was not as active and wasn't eating as much. I saw them both in front of my wave maker at times but still thought it was ich at the time. Next I noticed my Kole tank in front of the wave maker and observed the sugar like speckles and sheen to him as well. Again in certain light I could see it but in other light he looked ok. He was the first to die and the others followed quickly afterward. During this time I also noticed my black cap basslet wasn't coming out of his rock as much. He died quickly as well but I didn't see anything on him.
Does this help? These fish did not have a white spot or mark on them prior to this starting. I observe them every day for behavior and/or eating changes.
Does this help? These fish did not have a white spot or mark on them prior to this starting. I observe them every day for behavior and/or eating changes.
ThRoewer
New member
Yes, that sounds like velvet. Ich symptoms are usually quite obvious and white spots (their size actually depends on the fish species and how the fish's skin reacts to the irritation the parasite causes) are generally visible even at very early stages. Research has shown that the locations of the infections are fairly random and nearly equally likely on the entire body with only a slight preference for the gills.
Velvet, on the other hand, targets the gills and can be fairly confined to just the gills. By the time you see the velvety golden coating on the body, the infection is already quite advanced.
Acquired immunity to amyloodiniosis is associated with an antibody response
https://www.researchgate.net/public...erious_problem_in_semi_intensive_earthen_pond
"... Moreover, the study of immune hosts showed that after a sub-lethal exposure to the parasite some fish species acquire immunity which is mediated by specific antibodies (Smith et al, 1994; Cecchini et al, 2001). ..."
http://repositorio.furg.br/xmlui/bi...razilian Flounder Purulichthys.pdf?sequence=1
"... Infested fish were successfully treated with copper sulfate (1.5-mg CUn for 24 h during 7d). Observation of the biofilm from the bottom of the tank showed a high number of resting cysts (tomonts) of A. cf. ocellatum after treatment. Apparently, the copper sulfate forced the detachment of the trophonts (feeding parasitic growth stage), and generated the high number of tomonts at the bottom of the tank. The copper sulfate concentration used in the treatment was not effective to kill the tomonts. ..."
Those articles could give some possible explanations for what happened.
But from everything you described a re-introduction close to the outbreak is far more likely than the parasite lying dormant for a year or being present and active while the fish were partially immune to it.
Below a few more articles that may shed light on Amyloodinium and fish's immunity to it
Studies on Amyloodinium ocellatum (Dinoflagellata) in Mississippi Sound: natural and experimental hosts
Reproduction cycle and tolerance to temperature and salinity of Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown, 1931)(Dinoflagellida).
Amyloodinium ocellatum (by E.J. Noga)
Velvet, on the other hand, targets the gills and can be fairly confined to just the gills. By the time you see the velvety golden coating on the body, the infection is already quite advanced.
Acquired immunity to amyloodiniosis is associated with an antibody response
https://www.researchgate.net/public...erious_problem_in_semi_intensive_earthen_pond
"... Moreover, the study of immune hosts showed that after a sub-lethal exposure to the parasite some fish species acquire immunity which is mediated by specific antibodies (Smith et al, 1994; Cecchini et al, 2001). ..."
http://repositorio.furg.br/xmlui/bi...razilian Flounder Purulichthys.pdf?sequence=1
"... Infested fish were successfully treated with copper sulfate (1.5-mg CUn for 24 h during 7d). Observation of the biofilm from the bottom of the tank showed a high number of resting cysts (tomonts) of A. cf. ocellatum after treatment. Apparently, the copper sulfate forced the detachment of the trophonts (feeding parasitic growth stage), and generated the high number of tomonts at the bottom of the tank. The copper sulfate concentration used in the treatment was not effective to kill the tomonts. ..."
Those articles could give some possible explanations for what happened.
But from everything you described a re-introduction close to the outbreak is far more likely than the parasite lying dormant for a year or being present and active while the fish were partially immune to it.
Below a few more articles that may shed light on Amyloodinium and fish's immunity to it
Studies on Amyloodinium ocellatum (Dinoflagellata) in Mississippi Sound: natural and experimental hosts
Reproduction cycle and tolerance to temperature and salinity of Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown, 1931)(Dinoflagellida).
Amyloodinium ocellatum (by E.J. Noga)
Thank you for providing all of the links and info. I read all of the articles with the exception of the last one, Amlyoodinium Ocelliatum by EJ Noga. That one gave me page no longer available error.
I do have a new understanding of velvet, it's lifecycle and potential immunity. For example, my ocellaris clown pair showed no signs of the disease this time or the first (they have been with me for about 10 years now, first in my 55 gallon and than the 180 gallon upgrade tank about a year later). One of the articles spoke about immunity for tomato clown fish but maybe some other species of clowns also have immunity. Mine are tank bred.
Second thing I learned from the articles: After copper treatment trophonts detach and become tomonts and stayed adhered to biofilm at bottom of tank or substrate.
This got me to think about one thing I did differently in my tank maintenance the past few weeks. My rock is not positioned directly against the back tank wall but has several inches clearance. I set it up this way deliberately so the fish would have more swimming room and can make complete circles around the rock and tank if desired.
I vacuum my sand bed weekly during water changes in front, sides and back corners, but can't reach the middle back easily. The last few weeks I have disturbed the middle back sand bed a bit (not completely) to try and get at some nuisance algea I wanted to get rid of. Note my sand bed is not deep - maybe an inch around, less in areas. And I have disturbed the back before - just not recently.
Question: Could a tomont survive that long in the sand bed and initial copper treatment and infect my fish now?
I do have a new understanding of velvet, it's lifecycle and potential immunity. For example, my ocellaris clown pair showed no signs of the disease this time or the first (they have been with me for about 10 years now, first in my 55 gallon and than the 180 gallon upgrade tank about a year later). One of the articles spoke about immunity for tomato clown fish but maybe some other species of clowns also have immunity. Mine are tank bred.
Second thing I learned from the articles: After copper treatment trophonts detach and become tomonts and stayed adhered to biofilm at bottom of tank or substrate.
This got me to think about one thing I did differently in my tank maintenance the past few weeks. My rock is not positioned directly against the back tank wall but has several inches clearance. I set it up this way deliberately so the fish would have more swimming room and can make complete circles around the rock and tank if desired.
I vacuum my sand bed weekly during water changes in front, sides and back corners, but can't reach the middle back easily. The last few weeks I have disturbed the middle back sand bed a bit (not completely) to try and get at some nuisance algea I wanted to get rid of. Note my sand bed is not deep - maybe an inch around, less in areas. And I have disturbed the back before - just not recently.
Question: Could a tomont survive that long in the sand bed and initial copper treatment and infect my fish now?
ThRoewer
New member
Strange, the link works fine for me.
Try to get it from Google Scholar by using the link below or searching Google Scholar with the following: "Amyloodinium ocellatum Edward J. Noga"
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=Amyloodinium+ocellatum+Edward+J.+Noga&btnG=
The PDF from academia.edu should contain the whole book.
Your guess is as good as anyone's on that one. It seems no one really looked into the possibility of Velvet laying dormant for extended periods of time yet.
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