Ich always present, truth or not
- Thread starter trueperc
- Start date
sixty_reefer
New member
nereefpat
New member
Fish that are quarantined and treated don't carry it.
Many of the fish that aren't quarantined or treated do.
With all the information about ich out there, we should be past this.
To the post about biofiltration at low salinity, I have used hypo in a display a couple different times, and didn't see trouble with ammonia. At a low enough specific gravity, at some point, the bacteria would be in danger of too much osmotic pressure, but it is apparently lower than 1.009
Many of the fish that aren't quarantined or treated do.
With all the information about ich out there, we should be past this.
To the post about biofiltration at low salinity, I have used hypo in a display a couple different times, and didn't see trouble with ammonia. At a low enough specific gravity, at some point, the bacteria would be in danger of too much osmotic pressure, but it is apparently lower than 1.009
sixty_reefer
New member
How do you explain the usual "œI've got ich again" thread that we so used to see after all the fish treated and follow period?
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nereefpat
New member
Each case is probably different.
Some possible causes:
Not a long enough fallow.
Incorrect or improperly executed treatment.
Qt too close to the display.
Non-fish additions that weren't given a long enough fallow.
I'm sure there are a few that I'm forgetting.
We know enough about the ich life cycle, and we know spontaneous generation is bunk, so that really should answer it.
Some possible causes:
Not a long enough fallow.
Incorrect or improperly executed treatment.
Qt too close to the display.
Non-fish additions that weren't given a long enough fallow.
I'm sure there are a few that I'm forgetting.
We know enough about the ich life cycle, and we know spontaneous generation is bunk, so that really should answer it.
Crooked Reef
Active member
What nereefpat said. Ich isn’t magical. People either mess up their fallow period, treatment method or buy a snail or crab or a drag and add it to the tank. The inverts can’t host ich, but ich sure can easily be on a shell or rock.
Joe0813
Active member
so how long is a fallow period.. Because since reading constantly about what I'm going to do with treatment I've read 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 72 days, 80 days and now I just was talking to a LFS and they said 90 days but hypo typically will not work. only thing know to 100% kill ich is copper. Which I can't do since I have wrasse
Crooked Reef
Active member
Fallow is 72, though I have read recently that it should be boosted to 76. 90 days as suggested by the lfs is probably just so they are being over cautious. You will have to treat the fish with tank transfer method if you can’t do copper or else it will just survive on the fish.
nereefpat
New member
How long is fallow?
The biggest factor is how long ich can stay in its cyst stage. Usually it only lasts about a week. But, in a lab, it was seen to take as long as 72 days, in cool water. Add in some time for the rest of the life cycle, and you end up with 72 days + a couple days.
So, it's a bell curve. 30 days may be enough. As you get closer to the 72-76 day mark, it asymtotes toward 100%
As for copper and wrasses, I've also heard they can be sensitive. I have seen reports from wrasse experts that if you take time and ramp up the concentration, they can handle it.
Some folks have reported trouble with hypo, so I'm not sure what to think about that. I've used it with success.
I have a tank setup strictly for coral and inverts. No fish see this tank. Ever. Everything that goes into this tank sees 76 days of fishless life. Then they can go into the display. I do this in cycles because I don't believe there is any other way as some do. I buy my coral and inverts in waves or I start the timer over based on the newest addition.
My fish, all see TTM and then go into a totally different tank for observation for a minimum of 2 more weeks. If I screwup the TTM cycle. I start over.
I do not ever put my hands into one system and then another system the same day. Things can wait. Also, each system has its own tools that do not cross.
QT natzi? Maybe?
When I look into my tank and see my powder brown tang healthy and fully colored. I know and feel I'm doing the right thing. Lots of work, yes. Anything worth waiting for is worth the work.
My fish, all see TTM and then go into a totally different tank for observation for a minimum of 2 more weeks. If I screwup the TTM cycle. I start over.
I do not ever put my hands into one system and then another system the same day. Things can wait. Also, each system has its own tools that do not cross.
QT natzi? Maybe?
When I look into my tank and see my powder brown tang healthy and fully colored. I know and feel I'm doing the right thing. Lots of work, yes. Anything worth waiting for is worth the work.
lagatbezan
Active member
Ich is always present is a myth. Don't believe it.
Qt is not always 100% and there is always a certain level of failure associated with it as is with everything else. For example Ich can also be introduce into your display from a little bit of water that comes in with your corals, live rock, inverts or chaeto. Another reason everything wet should be fully quarantined.
Also There are certain strains of ich that are immune to hypo and have a cyst stages up to 72 days and maybe even longer. So if you treat with copper for 14 days, and then remove the copper, the fish can get reinfected if one of those cysts is present and hatches after the 14 days. Chances are low, but still there. It can take one of these strain, a simple contamination of the qt or a fish that has build up immunity to ich ( is a carrier but shows no symptoms) to reinfect the display.
proper qt requires a lot of patience, time and effort but it's well worth it at the end. That's just my personal opinion.
Qt is not always 100% and there is always a certain level of failure associated with it as is with everything else. For example Ich can also be introduce into your display from a little bit of water that comes in with your corals, live rock, inverts or chaeto. Another reason everything wet should be fully quarantined.
Also There are certain strains of ich that are immune to hypo and have a cyst stages up to 72 days and maybe even longer. So if you treat with copper for 14 days, and then remove the copper, the fish can get reinfected if one of those cysts is present and hatches after the 14 days. Chances are low, but still there. It can take one of these strain, a simple contamination of the qt or a fish that has build up immunity to ich ( is a carrier but shows no symptoms) to reinfect the display.
proper qt requires a lot of patience, time and effort but it's well worth it at the end. That's just my personal opinion.
lagatbezan
Active member
No, it only kills the free swimming stages of it. same goes for hypo and CP I believe.
Joe0813
Active member
so how do you know that the ich is 100% dead
dz6t
New member
Ich in its "œegg" form can be carried by live rock, coral, other invertebrates.
So unless you never add any coral, shrimp, snails, such as cleanup crews, after a proper fish-less treatment, ich can be always in the water.
Here is a link to an actual scientific study:
https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10026.1/2632/PETER JOHN BURGESS.PDF?sequence=1
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So unless you never add any coral, shrimp, snails, such as cleanup crews, after a proper fish-less treatment, ich can be always in the water.
Here is a link to an actual scientific study:
https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10026.1/2632/PETER JOHN BURGESS.PDF?sequence=1
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Joe0813
Active member
Unless I'm misunderstanding ich and its lifecycle though even if you QT your fish with copper if for whatever reason there is an egg in the qt tank it will not die.
after this whole episode I'm going through right now, anything and everything will go through a qt. coral, shrimp, inverts and whatever else will go through an 80 day qt process. trying to catch 14 fish, 3 of which are burrowed into the sand is a nightmare
lagatbezan
Active member
unfortunately nothing is 100%. best is to do a full 30 day qt at full therapeutic copper or CP level and then another 2-4 weeks of observation. you can move the fish out of copper or CP after day 14 in therapeutic level as long as:
1. The levels of copper or CP has been stable the entire time at full therapeutic level AND
2.you move it to another sterile qt at least 10 feet away. Only the fish gets transferred with as little water as possible to prevent contamination. Then observe the fish for 4-6 weeks. (this is what I personally usually do).
you can also do the black molly test. After you are done with the copper, you get a black molly (fresh water) and slowly climate it to sw and then add it to the qt. if ich is present it will manifest itself on the black molly. You need to make sure that the molly has never been acclimated to sw before this so that it has zero tolerance or immunity build up against ich. once done wit the molly, you can convert it back to fresh water but it should not be used again for this test.
1. The levels of copper or CP has been stable the entire time at full therapeutic level AND
2.you move it to another sterile qt at least 10 feet away. Only the fish gets transferred with as little water as possible to prevent contamination. Then observe the fish for 4-6 weeks. (this is what I personally usually do).
you can also do the black molly test. After you are done with the copper, you get a black molly (fresh water) and slowly climate it to sw and then add it to the qt. if ich is present it will manifest itself on the black molly. You need to make sure that the molly has never been acclimated to sw before this so that it has zero tolerance or immunity build up against ich. once done wit the molly, you can convert it back to fresh water but it should not be used again for this test.
dz6t
New member
Ich always present, truth or not
Yes, that is why reduce stress for the fish and feed them well is a better way to combat ich than go through long QT, even tank transfer method.
With out a strong immune system, fish can get sick by other parasites, bacteria and virus even after ich treatment.
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Yes, that is why reduce stress for the fish and feed them well is a better way to combat ich than go through long QT, even tank transfer method.
With out a strong immune system, fish can get sick by other parasites, bacteria and virus even after ich treatment.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
