Ich and Velvet vs. Copper question

[bureau13]

I think I once read that ich and velvet are attacked by copper meds during a particular phase of their lifecycle. However, I don't remember which phase that was. Anyone know? I think I also read that its a different phase than hypo, although I'm less sure about that.

I currently have some bannerfish in QT which were fine one day, and the next covered in ich-like spots. One of them died later that day, quick enough that it makes me wonder if its not velvet, although the other two, while obviously infected, are behaviorally-speaking, fine. I was going to treat them with Cupramine anyway, so I've started that, but the spots haven't gone away (I'm ramping up to full strength over the course of 2-3 days). Before when I treated a tang who had a couple spots, they vanished within a day of being in copper, even before I had it up to full strength. But...it could have been that they were at the point in the cycle that they were ready to drop off anyway, and then the copper nailed 'em there.

Thanks,
jds

 

[bureau13]

Ugh, can a mod please move this to the fish disease forum? I CLEARLY need more coffee...

jds

 

[traveller7]

[moved]

 

[Steven Pro]

Both copper and hyposalinity target the parasites while they are off of the fish. They won't do anything to the ones on the body. You previous experience was merely a coincidence.

 

[LargeAngels]

Like Steven said.

Here is some good reference.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/treatments.html

If you are using Seachems copper test kit with Cupramine and you have problems, or the readings don't make sense, try the Red Sea Copper test kit. EVEN if the reference sample gives you accurate readings.

 

[bureau13]

Thanks for the info. My bannerfish look better today, so I guess that's the natural next move for the parasites, only a vat of copper-based poison awaits them Bwahahaha...

You're not kidding about the Seachem Copper Multi-test. I had two which showed NO copper in the reference. They sent me another, and it showed OK on the reference, but it just never seemed to show enough copper in my QT...but the Red Sea test shows what I expect and its easier to use as a bonus.

jds

 

[bureau13]

Hey, that 3 Day Transfer method is interesting, I've never heard of that one. The one scary part is keeping the water quality up if you trash the biological filter every 3 days.

I'm referring to this.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8289373#post8289373 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
Like Steven said.

Here is some good reference.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/treatments.html

If you are using Seachems copper test kit with Cupramine and you have problems, or the readings don't make sense, try the Red Sea Copper test kit. EVEN if the reference sample gives you accurate readings.

 

[bureau13]

One other thing...the Red Sea test kit only shows a maximum value of 0.4, and the recommended dose of Cupramine is 0.5. Do you dilute by half and shoot for 0.25? Or are you using a different method?

jds

 

[Steven Pro]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8292080#post8292080 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bureau13
Hey, that 3 Day Transfer method is interesting, I've never heard of that one. The one scary part is keeping the water quality up if you trash the biological filter every 3 days.

I'm referring to this.

I am starting to use that method more and more, but I have a dozen well established sponge filters to use, so I don't have ammonia issues.

 

[zemuron114]

velvet is very very difficult to to treat with or without copper.

after the fish looks healthy and cleared up, keep the treatment going for another 2-4 weeks.

 

[LargeAngels]

Cupramine does a wonderfull job in killing velvet.

 

[zemuron114]

not in all cases or very large cases. My friend got velvet in his holding system which is 800-1100 gallons. He dosed the recommended dose for a month and it didn't go away. He then emptied the system, bleached it and left it dry for 3 days... filled it back up.. and low and behold.. he still had velvet! not as easy to kill as ICH.

 

[Steven Pro]

Call me skeptical, but I have a hard time believing that. Copper has been proven effective against Amyloodinium ocellatum and should work in two weeks. And draining and bleaching would certainly kill anything. Perhaps the ailment was misdiagnosed? Brooklynella looks somewhat similar and would not respond to copper, but then again bleach would have taken care of that too.

 

[zemuron114]

he had his water tested by the Waikiki aquarium. they said he had velvet and told him to empty the system bleach and let it dry for 2-4 days. This was after he ran copper (keep in mind he runs a consistant supply of copper because fish are coming and going)

did what the aquarium said and filled it back up. Went diving caught about 80 fish and 3 days later he lost 24 over night....

 

[Steven Pro]

Well, how did he know those newly caught fish were not infected?

 

[zemuron114]

so every hawaiian fish is infected with velvet?? seems quite a stretch to assume that.

and my other friend who went diving with him collected in the same place and none of his fish died. The aquarium said that velvet can actually live in freshwater for a little while as well, which i found to be quite strange.

 

[Steven Pro]

so every hawaiian fish is infected with velvet?? seems quite a stretch to assume that.

No, but it only takes one to infect a system.

The aquarium said that velvet can actually live in freshwater for a little while as well, which i found to be quite strange.

My references say it can survive down to 3 parts per thousand, which is darn close to freshwater. But the bleach?

 

[billsreef]

The odds of one wild caught fish in 80 having velvet is reasonably good. It's also possible that some nets or other containers used to handle the fish were not disinfected.

 

[zemuron114]

he ripped apart his entire system and literally bleached everything (collection buckets, nets etc)

there must have been some water in the pipes somewhere along the line or something... i have no idea. all i know is it tested positive again after he bleached everything.

No idea how that happened and neither does the aquarium.

then most of the fish collected would have velvet or atleast a noticeable amount? then how come my system or my other friends system didn't come down with it?