jimmyj7090
aka John K
I did my full treatment at 1.008 max (when checking used this as the highest before adding top off)
All fish lived and all still live - 175 days now.
All fish lived and all still live - 175 days now.
"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
Triggerfish
Active member
getting clown triggers and clowns to get along (therapist)
w t f is that all about..
w t f is that all about..
jimmyj7090
aka John K
I guess that's supposed to be a work/reef joke, apparently not a very good one,
I'm a social worker, mostly family and adolescent crisis satbalization and therapy.
I'll work on updating that, I guess it doesn't make much sense to anyone that isn't in my line of work and has a reef tank. Then again, considering salary, I may be the only one in my line of work with a reef tank.
I'm a social worker, mostly family and adolescent crisis satbalization and therapy.
I'll work on updating that, I guess it doesn't make much sense to anyone that isn't in my line of work and has a reef tank. Then again, considering salary, I may be the only one in my line of work with a reef tank.
jimmyj7090
aka John K
Is that any better? Should I just give up the work reference and say Broke reefer? 
jk
jk
guitarfish
Premium Member
Hey guys, checking in here. I have a small yellow tang and a blue YT damsel in my 20g QT tank. I've had them for 20 days now, and they have been at 1.0085 for 10 days.
The tang is VERY twitchy and "darty", has been since I got her. Every fish I've ever gotten at the LFS where I got these two has had ich, so I wasn't surprised by the behavior early on.
However, if the tang had ich when I got it - 20 days ago - those parasites should have detached by now. The QT was fallow for 6-8 weeks prior, so I know there wasn't any ich in the QT that infected them. To add to the weirdness of it all, I have never seen any spots on either fish, and I've spent plenty of time looking.
I was watching the tang tonight - definitely seems to be trying to scratch/rub it's belly/bottom. The damsel appears and behaves normally, btw.
This behavior aside, she eats a 1" square piece of nori every day, and is also eating frozen Formula 2.
My plan is to hypo for at least 30 days. It's the twitchiness that concerns me. I've seen fish with ich do this, but they usually calm down after a week or so when the parasites detach.
INPUT PLEASE !
Thanks,
-Dave
The tang is VERY twitchy and "darty", has been since I got her. Every fish I've ever gotten at the LFS where I got these two has had ich, so I wasn't surprised by the behavior early on.
However, if the tang had ich when I got it - 20 days ago - those parasites should have detached by now. The QT was fallow for 6-8 weeks prior, so I know there wasn't any ich in the QT that infected them. To add to the weirdness of it all, I have never seen any spots on either fish, and I've spent plenty of time looking.
I was watching the tang tonight - definitely seems to be trying to scratch/rub it's belly/bottom. The damsel appears and behaves normally, btw.
This behavior aside, she eats a 1" square piece of nori every day, and is also eating frozen Formula 2.
My plan is to hypo for at least 30 days. It's the twitchiness that concerns me. I've seen fish with ich do this, but they usually calm down after a week or so when the parasites detach.
INPUT PLEASE !
Thanks,
-Dave
xlayedoutx
Member
I'm sorry to hear about everybodies problems. I was at my LFS today and they said they know a guy that has been battleing ICH for 3 years now. He's got a 180g and bought everything from this LFS and everything was fine. Then one day he found a deal online that he couldn't pass up, bought the fish online no QT put it in his display and 1 week later he has ICH. 3 years later and trying everything in the book he still has it.
After talking to my LFS the way I see this is that ICH is like a cold of Flu. It doesn't matter how healthy you are or if you eat right and get plenty of sleep and everything we do to ourselves, and all the meds we take to stay healthy, sooner of later we all get sick. Everything gets sick at some point in its life span. Thats the way that I view these fish. It doesn't matter what you do or how you try to prevent it one of these days your fish are going to get sick with something, and just like the flu affects older people and young babies the worse, I beleive its the same affect on older and younger fish. Has anybody noticed if its the babies or older fish that tend to die the easiest and if its the middle aged fish that seem healthier and seem to survive these outbreaks.
I may have a messed up view of this and no one may agree with me but thats the way I look at it.
After talking to my LFS the way I see this is that ICH is like a cold of Flu. It doesn't matter how healthy you are or if you eat right and get plenty of sleep and everything we do to ourselves, and all the meds we take to stay healthy, sooner of later we all get sick. Everything gets sick at some point in its life span. Thats the way that I view these fish. It doesn't matter what you do or how you try to prevent it one of these days your fish are going to get sick with something, and just like the flu affects older people and young babies the worse, I beleive its the same affect on older and younger fish. Has anybody noticed if its the babies or older fish that tend to die the easiest and if its the middle aged fish that seem healthier and seem to survive these outbreaks.
I may have a messed up view of this and no one may agree with me but thats the way I look at it.
guitarfish
Premium Member
xlayedoutx - generally speaking I suppose you are correct with regard to the immune system and diseases. No animals live forever (except ich, it seems, LOL).
Ich however is a parasite, and if we keep it out of our systems, our fish can't be infected with it. Your friend's 180 is a good example - sounds like he had a clean tank, but then introduced ich on the new fish, and the rest is history.
There's well-documented evidence that we can keep ich out of our aquaria, but it sure is a lot of effort.
Ich however is a parasite, and if we keep it out of our systems, our fish can't be infected with it. Your friend's 180 is a good example - sounds like he had a clean tank, but then introduced ich on the new fish, and the rest is history.
There's well-documented evidence that we can keep ich out of our aquaria, but it sure is a lot of effort.
Triggerfish
Active member
Dave-
the fish could easily have been reinfected within the 20 day period. but not all sure that is the issue.
if the fish has/had ich and you never noticed it, then it could be residing within the gill area..i have noticed when the parasite enters that area it will make the fish twitch and dart around much more.
You do not mention any observation regarding the fish rubbing around the gill area, just the bottom. my fish would rub the gill area against the rocks when they became infected. the fish would also display the darting behavior as well.
if it's not ich, it could be some form of internal parasite. if the hypo does not relieve this condition, perhaps treat for internal parasites.
gl
the fish could easily have been reinfected within the 20 day period. but not all sure that is the issue.
if the fish has/had ich and you never noticed it, then it could be residing within the gill area..i have noticed when the parasite enters that area it will make the fish twitch and dart around much more.
You do not mention any observation regarding the fish rubbing around the gill area, just the bottom. my fish would rub the gill area against the rocks when they became infected. the fish would also display the darting behavior as well.
if it's not ich, it could be some form of internal parasite. if the hypo does not relieve this condition, perhaps treat for internal parasites.
gl
guyguerra
Premium Member
I had three fish in QT. 2 of them were scratching and had a few spots. I got tired of killing fish by subjecting them to treatments. All I did was use vitamins and No Sick Fish, and left them alone for a couple of months. It eventually stopped and these fish were very healthy. I also finally had Ich in my 230 display. It is virtually impossible to stop it. I used the same approach in my 230. All the fish cleared up. I eventually added the three fish from my 50 gallon QT. Everyone is fine. I have come to the conclusion that we generally overreact to Ich. I will always QT new fish, but I will not treat fish for Ich anymore, other than to give them vitamins and some type of reef safe fish safe treatment. Ich is not as deadly as some think, and you will eventually get it. I did a thread that discussed what happened with fish that weren't treated and found that most fish will survive it. I believe the treatments, stress from unusual tanks and constantly being messed with will reduce it's chances of beating it and probably kill the fish. I freaked out when my display had ich, and if I followed some of the advice I was used to reading, I would have lost at least some of them. I didn't loose one fish, and all spots are gone, all scratching has stopped, and my tank is great. I suggest that you try not treating other than using vitamins, and good husbandry, with as little stress as posible on the fish. You might be surprised with the results. I also believe some fish just aren't going to survive the trauma of being cuaght, shipped, and moved from tank to tank. Those are going to die no matter what you do. Often we blame these losses on ich when it's not. Maybe the fish had it, but it was going to die anyway. I found that many people with larger tanks can't remove their fish, and they use the methods above and are fine. I didn't find one person in that thread I did that had a total wipe out, which is what you would expect with the way we act towards it. Most didn't have any losses at all. This is a different approach, but as valid as any others I've tried, and I've tried them all.
guitarfish
Premium Member
That's the beauty of this hobby Guy - it's your tank and you can do what you darn well please. :smokin: If you're OK with it, that's all that matters.
I think the size of the tank can be a factor. I have a 75g, which is kinda small compared to what some have. A larger tank, in theory gives the fish more room, which "dilutes" the amount of ich per square inch. Fish may still become infected, but with fewer parasites. Death usually comes from suffocation because of an overwhelming number of parasites.
I've read some threads of people with big tanks - 500, 1000 gal. or more - they see ich ever now and then, but it's never out of control.
Just an observation.
I think the size of the tank can be a factor. I have a 75g, which is kinda small compared to what some have. A larger tank, in theory gives the fish more room, which "dilutes" the amount of ich per square inch. Fish may still become infected, but with fewer parasites. Death usually comes from suffocation because of an overwhelming number of parasites.
I've read some threads of people with big tanks - 500, 1000 gal. or more - they see ich ever now and then, but it's never out of control.
Just an observation.
Triggerfish
Active member
Ok,,,i'm getting ready to build the fish trap for the weekend removal project.
Current fish in tank
1 firefish - haven't seen the other for a week now..crap
blue goby
blenny
perc
wrasse
since removing the angel 3 weeks ago that was freakin loaded with ich spots,,everything has been basically looking fine. even the angel seems spotless with the copper treatment.
i really think i could just leave the current fish in the display and they would probably be fine without the ich magnet angel in there...BUT, that aint gonna work so 9-10 week fallow period to follow..wow,,that's gonna be a long arse time.
after i treat the angel, i really think i'm going to sell it. beautiful fish but has become a zoa picker and just getting a bad vibe with this fish with all the damn ich episodes this thing has endured over the past year.
Current fish in tank
1 firefish - haven't seen the other for a week now..crap
blue goby
blenny
perc
wrasse
since removing the angel 3 weeks ago that was freakin loaded with ich spots,,everything has been basically looking fine. even the angel seems spotless with the copper treatment.
i really think i could just leave the current fish in the display and they would probably be fine without the ich magnet angel in there...BUT, that aint gonna work so 9-10 week fallow period to follow..wow,,that's gonna be a long arse time.
after i treat the angel, i really think i'm going to sell it. beautiful fish but has become a zoa picker and just getting a bad vibe with this fish with all the damn ich episodes this thing has endured over the past year.
cstamper65605
Member
success story I think
success story I think
I have been watching this thread ever since my 240 came down with ich about 9 weeks ago...
I think I have a success story to tell. As per this thread, I removed all remaining fish (2 died) to Q tanks. But I did it in fits and starts, as I really was not convinced that (1) we had ich or what we had.... (2) I had to remove all the fish and fallow the tank (Yes, I was in denial) Anyway, my first fish removed were a sailfin tang, lawnmower blenny and foxface. All 3 were showing symptoms, pretty severe. Treated in a 29 g. for two days with copper, keeping the level at the required level...and the more I read, I decided to switch to hyposalinity. By then , another fish was obviously in trouble, a large (7") naso tang. I knew we had to make drastic arrangements to house this fish. We went to our storage shed and broke out an old 55 g tank--thank goodness we had kept it. Set that up with the Naso only,,and began hypo. also at this time I faced the music and also removed the longnose hawk, 3 threadfin cardinals, and a beautiful dragon wrasse from the 240. THese fish were showing NO symptoms whatsoever. I put them all in a 10 gal tank and began hypo. So all three tanks were in hypo. After 5 weeks were completed, I began raising the salinity for 1 week and by the last day of 6 weeks, it was up to 1.024, where I normally keep it. After a few days, I returned all of the fish to the main tank. It has been a week and there are no symptoms of ich at all in the main tank. I am making use of the Q tanks now with new fish to replace those we lost.
Findings: (!) I believe either the copper OR the ich parasite caused my sailfin to contract HLLE. He is badly marred on his face, a symetrical pattern BTW--odd. My lfs says he will recover....I am giving him plenty of vitamins and HUFA's with his food. (He is still in Q, not b/c of illness but because he is a mean sucker and I want to place all the new fish in the big tank before placing him in LAST) (2) I believe that if done correctly, hypo is effective against ich, based on my experience. Heaven forbid if I would get this again, I would hypo again, even tho it's a royal pain. (3) from what I read, there are different strains of ich, some more resistant, so maybe we were just lucky that this tx worked. (4) by the last days in hypo,, the naso had lost a lot of his color but after I brought the salinity back up, he was back to normal. (5) specifically, both the naso and the lawnmower blenny had cloudy eyes when I finally broke down and put them in the hospital tanks--but they completely recovered. I feel they would have surely died without treatment (6) I believe if I had caught this early enough I would have been able to save the two fish that died. I realize it's only been a week. If I see symptoms I will report back.
Here is one important addendum: After bringing the salinity back up in the Naso's tank, I notice him trying to 'scratch' on the bottom of the tank....I was scared to death that this whole treatment had been for nothing....we had just been to IMAC and I had gotten a sample of a new medication from Instant Ocean, called LifeGuard. Says effective against marine Ick and Oodinium. With revolutinoary new HaloShield. Ingredients say 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone. Anyway, you only treat 5 days, so I decided to go thru a round of treatment (with the Naso only) and then by golly, I was putting him back in that tank! NOw I can't say if this was the key to his recovery, or if he was even really reinfected---but since I had the other fish in the 29g and they are okay, at least the hypo alone worked on them. BTW, this LifeGuard is supposed to treat fungus, bacterial gill disease and mouth and fin rot also.....it's a wide-spectrum remedy intended to help people who have a hard time diagnosing the illness. I know this kind of throws a monkey-wrench in things but I still believe that FWIW hypo is a good answer...
success story I think
I have been watching this thread ever since my 240 came down with ich about 9 weeks ago...
I think I have a success story to tell. As per this thread, I removed all remaining fish (2 died) to Q tanks. But I did it in fits and starts, as I really was not convinced that (1) we had ich or what we had.... (2) I had to remove all the fish and fallow the tank (Yes, I was in denial) Anyway, my first fish removed were a sailfin tang, lawnmower blenny and foxface. All 3 were showing symptoms, pretty severe. Treated in a 29 g. for two days with copper, keeping the level at the required level...and the more I read, I decided to switch to hyposalinity. By then , another fish was obviously in trouble, a large (7") naso tang. I knew we had to make drastic arrangements to house this fish. We went to our storage shed and broke out an old 55 g tank--thank goodness we had kept it. Set that up with the Naso only,,and began hypo. also at this time I faced the music and also removed the longnose hawk, 3 threadfin cardinals, and a beautiful dragon wrasse from the 240. THese fish were showing NO symptoms whatsoever. I put them all in a 10 gal tank and began hypo. So all three tanks were in hypo. After 5 weeks were completed, I began raising the salinity for 1 week and by the last day of 6 weeks, it was up to 1.024, where I normally keep it. After a few days, I returned all of the fish to the main tank. It has been a week and there are no symptoms of ich at all in the main tank. I am making use of the Q tanks now with new fish to replace those we lost.
Findings: (!) I believe either the copper OR the ich parasite caused my sailfin to contract HLLE. He is badly marred on his face, a symetrical pattern BTW--odd. My lfs says he will recover....I am giving him plenty of vitamins and HUFA's with his food. (He is still in Q, not b/c of illness but because he is a mean sucker and I want to place all the new fish in the big tank before placing him in LAST) (2) I believe that if done correctly, hypo is effective against ich, based on my experience. Heaven forbid if I would get this again, I would hypo again, even tho it's a royal pain. (3) from what I read, there are different strains of ich, some more resistant, so maybe we were just lucky that this tx worked. (4) by the last days in hypo,, the naso had lost a lot of his color but after I brought the salinity back up, he was back to normal. (5) specifically, both the naso and the lawnmower blenny had cloudy eyes when I finally broke down and put them in the hospital tanks--but they completely recovered. I feel they would have surely died without treatment (6) I believe if I had caught this early enough I would have been able to save the two fish that died. I realize it's only been a week. If I see symptoms I will report back.
Here is one important addendum: After bringing the salinity back up in the Naso's tank, I notice him trying to 'scratch' on the bottom of the tank....I was scared to death that this whole treatment had been for nothing....we had just been to IMAC and I had gotten a sample of a new medication from Instant Ocean, called LifeGuard. Says effective against marine Ick and Oodinium. With revolutinoary new HaloShield. Ingredients say 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone. Anyway, you only treat 5 days, so I decided to go thru a round of treatment (with the Naso only) and then by golly, I was putting him back in that tank! NOw I can't say if this was the key to his recovery, or if he was even really reinfected---but since I had the other fish in the 29g and they are okay, at least the hypo alone worked on them. BTW, this LifeGuard is supposed to treat fungus, bacterial gill disease and mouth and fin rot also.....it's a wide-spectrum remedy intended to help people who have a hard time diagnosing the illness. I know this kind of throws a monkey-wrench in things but I still believe that FWIW hypo is a good answer...
guitarfish
Premium Member
Wow, Cathy, you've been busy. 
Keep us up to date on how things go!
Keep us up to date on how things go!
Triggerfish
Active member
Re: success story I think
Re: success story I think
welcome to the thread.
treating my tank with hypo for 5 weeks was not successful, the ich reappeared at about 4 weeks later.
hopefully your treatment worked for you.. however, i would have strongly recommended, doing the hypo for 6 weeks after the last spot was noticed. after raising salinity, monitoring the fish for an additional 4 weeks to ensure the treatment was successful. as well as keeping main tank fallow for the duration to ensure the ich died off.
i was pretty exited not seeing the ich close to 4 weeks then it was back with fierce vengeance.
good luck
Re: success story I think
welcome to the thread.
treating my tank with hypo for 5 weeks was not successful, the ich reappeared at about 4 weeks later.
hopefully your treatment worked for you.. however, i would have strongly recommended, doing the hypo for 6 weeks after the last spot was noticed. after raising salinity, monitoring the fish for an additional 4 weeks to ensure the treatment was successful. as well as keeping main tank fallow for the duration to ensure the ich died off.
i was pretty exited not seeing the ich close to 4 weeks then it was back with fierce vengeance.
good luck
cstamper65605
Member
Triggerfish, I'm sorry you have not had success with hypo. I will be especially vigilant at the 4 week mark. That is when my new fish will be done with Quarantine and will be ready to go in the main tank--if all is well. I have heard many people comment that ich may drive them out of the hobby....i can see why.
guitarfish
Premium Member
RE: Driving people away from the hobby
A friend of mine doesn't QT. We both have 75g's. Ich comes & goes in his display all the time. So do fish, of course. Some of his fish have weathered ich outbreaks many times. Others perish. He understands/accepts this as one of the downsides, and this tradeoff is something he lives with. In return, he has a nice tank and a variety of fish that he enjoys. And when some fish die, he gets new ones.
I on the other hand, in my display (ich free), I have only 3 small fish and haven't added any new in almost two years, because I haven't been able to get them through the QT process alive. They've died in QT for a variety of reasons. Most recently, I had a coral beauty "clean" and on its way to the display, and the heater locked up one night and cooked her. I can't win for losing.
In any case, my frustrations have probably far exceeded that of my friend. He's probably gotten more joy from his system than I from mine.
I think it has a lot to do with the temperament and personality of the aquarist. I couldn't live with an ich-infected display. I care too much about my fishies. I'm definitely the type that could be driven away (and has thought of it a couple times). However, there are plenty of people out there who will accept ich as part of the process and still enjoy the whole thing.
A friend of mine doesn't QT. We both have 75g's. Ich comes & goes in his display all the time. So do fish, of course. Some of his fish have weathered ich outbreaks many times. Others perish. He understands/accepts this as one of the downsides, and this tradeoff is something he lives with. In return, he has a nice tank and a variety of fish that he enjoys. And when some fish die, he gets new ones.
I on the other hand, in my display (ich free), I have only 3 small fish and haven't added any new in almost two years, because I haven't been able to get them through the QT process alive. They've died in QT for a variety of reasons. Most recently, I had a coral beauty "clean" and on its way to the display, and the heater locked up one night and cooked her. I can't win for losing.
In any case, my frustrations have probably far exceeded that of my friend. He's probably gotten more joy from his system than I from mine.
I think it has a lot to do with the temperament and personality of the aquarist. I couldn't live with an ich-infected display. I care too much about my fishies. I'm definitely the type that could be driven away (and has thought of it a couple times). However, there are plenty of people out there who will accept ich as part of the process and still enjoy the whole thing.
cstamper65605
Member
Guitarfish, I agree and I'm the same way...if I see i speck it will drive me nuts--i will be watching that fish like a hawk and become obsessed with it. to treat or not, how to treat, when to give in and catch the fish and remove to quarantine....that is the unpleasant part of it. But if we have adequate solutions to the problems, it becomes a do-able challenge. At least that is how I look at it now....if I have another outbreak in our 240 it may change my view of things
Triggerfish
Active member
WHOA... no idea what happened recently in the QT,,but my Asful angel has died. didnt notice until late yesterday, when i smelled something rather foul from near where tank was.
last time i checked the tank on monday things seemed fine..so i really have no idea what could have happenned so quickly..again,,not ich related.
last time i checked the tank on monday things seemed fine..so i really have no idea what could have happenned so quickly..again,,not ich related.
guitarfish
Premium Member
My yellow tang has been in QT for 35 days. At about day 28 I saw 2 spots. DANG!!! She got a bacterial infection, but 5 days with Maracyn II cleared that up, and I'm removed the meds via carbon right now. I've been keeping the water at about 1.0085, and doing 20% water changes every few days as needed. LONG process, NEED PATIENCE I DO!!
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