"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[cstamper65605]

What are 'theraputic levels'

What are 'theraputic levels'

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7629806#post7629806 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Triggerfish


this is one of the reasons why i will be pre-treating with therapeutic copper levels in QT. if something shows up, full treatement.

Triggerfish, what is the diff between 'therapeutic levels" and the level on the directions where it begins to be effective? (my cupramine says .5 is effective--do you keep yours lower than that?)

BTW, I guess the old cupramine was stronger b/c my old old bottle says .2 is effective--I have switched to using a new bottle. My old Aq. Systems test vial only reads to .25! Weird. (I have a new Salifert test kit on order)

 

[Triggerfish]

yes,, there was mention regarding some bad test kits.
the seachem kit i had seemed to have worked well with testing the cupramine copper. it was right on to where it seemed it should have been.

yes, therapeutic would be at .2 per cupramine instructions and is supposedly able to kill the parasite at that dosage. i believe the manuf states it can be safe to dose up to .8 so the manuf designates the middle ground of .5 for regular outbreaks dosing.

 

[pecan2phat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7630377#post7630377 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guitarfish
pecan, what level do you keep the Cupramine at? Do you notice any side effects? I've done it twice, once on a yellow tang, once on a coral beauty. In both cases I've observed the fish become VERY lethargic and eat only 1/4 of what they used to. That's why I when with hypo.

Also - what test kit do you use with Cupramine?

Thanks!

I started out with .25 but had a tough time keeping the levels up. I originally thought that my skimmer was removing the copper so I stopped the skimmer.
When I did eventually get the levels up to .50, I still noticed scratching even after 14 days, so I increased the level to .60 and experimented with turning my skimmer back on to improve the water quality.
Turns out that the skimmer has not reduced the level of copper in the water column and .60 worked well.

They were at .60 for about 10-14 days and through miscellaneous maintenance, I've let the levels drop back down to .50 and will slowly take out the copper through water changes vs completely removing through carbon & Cuprisorb. I want to wean them down to about .10-.25 before adding the chemical filtration to remove the remainder of the copper.

The only test kit that has worked for me is the Seachem copper test kit.

 

[guitarfish]

And your fish were eating and acting normally? Not lethargic or anything?

 

[pecan2phat]

I had lost a few fish during the treatment but I would say that they were the weaker of the bunch.

Presently, the copper is still at .50 and the fish are eating well and not lethargic.

They have been in copper for at least 28 days now, with .60 as a high for about a 10-14 day period out of the total 28+ days.

 

[Triggerfish]

why the extended treatment, did something appear that warranted the extension?
what's seachem's treatment duration recommendations look like?

 

[pecan2phat]

Seachem recommends 14 days after you reach .50 ppm.
I had to extend the treatment due to most fish were still exhibiting scratching and flashing after 14 days. That is also when I increased the copper level to .60 ppm.

So my plan of action was to leave the fish at .50 ppm after all symptoms were gone.

 

[Triggerfish]

Well,,haven't given an update in a bit as i have been basically holding off on any further eradication attempts.

but this is what has transpired over the past 6 weeks.
the last fish in the tank where i noticed spots was on 5/12 when my heavily infested coral beauty died.
since then the 5 remaining fish have shown no signs of the parasite. includes the clown and wrasse that previously displayed spots on multiple occassions.

the trap was not working and have since removed it from the tank. i have decided to give it some time to see if it reappears on the remaining fish in the tank. again, nothing has been seen in about 6 weeks. halides are back on tank so light is bright again.

the ich has been in there for over a year now..so perhaps the strain is dying off on its own.
my plan is as follows:
1. i will purchase a small angel and put through the quarantine process
2. after quarantine if fish have looked clean in main tank for the extended duration i will add to tank and see what happens.
3. if any fish show signs of the parasite, all fish will be removed for 9 weeks.
3. if that or any

 

[depresed34]

ich in 350

ich in 350

so can I remove lrand sand out of my 350 g+ 120 g sump system and do hypo and putlr in separated tub for q pleace pm

 

[Triggerfish]

if you have too many fish to remove from the tank, you could attempt hypo in there and remove anything you do not want to kill from the process.

depending on how heavily stocked you are..biological filtration could become an issue. but could also be an issue if you move the fish to a non established qtank as well.

 

[Triggerfish]

Update

still no noticeable signs of the parasite in main tank (8 weeks)
the wrasse jumped out last week. so only 4 fish presently in tank. all small.

7/15/06 - got 4 chromis that i know came from an ich infested system. they are in the 10g quarantine with copper now.
more results in about 6 weeks.

 

[cstamper65605]

Update

Update

To Recap: Had bad case of ich in 240 first of April--lost 2 fish, tuskfish and emporer angel, before I figured out it was ich. Valuable time wasted. Q'd all fish and treated with hypo, after two days of tx with copper (mistake, in my mind at the time, thought i"d try hypo. ) Hypo worked and fish were put back in 240 after 6 weeks. Fish had lost lots of their color but were still eating well, and bounced back when put in big tank. Was warned to ck fish carefully as 6 weeks might not be long enough to Q. fish. fish ck'd again at 6 weeks after adding back in and they are doing super, no signs of any white spots. Fish saved by my treatment: dragon wrasse, lawnmower blenny, large naso tang, foxface and 3 threadfin cards. Most were cloudy-eyed and showing symptoms and surely would have died without tx.

As a result of the short copper tx ( I think, or maybe the ich) the sailfin tang developed HLLE, and I hope will recover after a year or so. Cosmetic only, he eats and looks great otherwise. Sad, he's a gorgeous fish.

On May 26 we got new fish and Q'd in 55 g tank: tangs: 1 Kole, 1 Yellow, 1 Purple and 1 hippo. Also 3 anthias and 6 yellow tail damsels. From the start, damsels did poorly b/c of aggression and I had to remove 2 of them, 1 died. Saw just a bit of white on hippo and purple tangs, so I decided to treat prophylactically with Malachite Green (I know, I know) b/c that is what LFS uses on all fish as a precaution. After 2 days of this, one anthias and the yellow tang died, and other fish looked the same, so I decided to go with copper. Used this at .5 for 2 weeks, min. time stated on bottle (cupramine). Fish improved almost immediately and had better color. On June 30, fish were moved into 240, at 5 wks instead of 6 b/c I figured I could accelerate the process a little since I used the copper. Everyone is doing superbly and they are all as healthy as can be.

Bottom line is, next time I will Q with copper at .5--still not sure about the amount of time required, as two weeks did work, but if I were not in so much of a hurry to get those fish in (leaving on vacation) I might have waited a little longer. I know copper is toxic and a risk, but IMO it's a valuable tool to make sure your fish are ich free and well worth the risk.

 

[cstamper65605]

I forgot to mention the reason I chose copper in the second group of Q fish, and not hypo (even tho it worked great on the first batch) was b/c it was wayyyy more trouble keeping the salinity at 1.008 than it was keeping the copper at .5! Mind, you, when I was doing hypo, I had THREE Q tanks going, and with the copper at least I only had the 1 55 g. Boy was I glad when that hypo was over!

 

[Triggerfish]

whoa..nice update.. way to go..

well.. i ended up making a costly error in my qt preparation for the chromis. i realized i added 5x the recommended dosage for the 1st day. i was used to using the 55g and am now using a 10g. so i put 5ml instead of 1ml. needless to say, i think the damage was done pretty quickly, as i did a 60% water change about 6 hours after realizing this error.. 3 died today. crap...

 

[cstamper65605]

Yes, you have to be careful with that potent copper for sure. Sorry about your fish, Triggerfish. Did you do a copper test to see what the level was, or was it off the chart? Just curious. I was scared to death I was overdosing when I realized my test was inaccurate. After getting my salifert test, I actually had the dosage too low at first, but fixed that. I did not find it hard to keep the level at .5, dispite what Stephen Pro says about copper treatments being a pain to monitor. I really hated testing and adjusting the salinity every day when I did hypo, ick. It's copper for me now. Keep us posted with the rest of your fish....

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7764305#post7764305 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cstamper65605
Did you do a copper test to see what the level was

nope as with cupramine the full treatment dose is not administered until 48 hours after the 1st dose, per manf instructions.

i freakin should have known something was not right as they were not eating and gasping a bit. it was just too late by the time i figured it out. still one hanging in there. what a discouragment. just stupid careless errors.

 

[cstamper65605]

Don't beat yourself up about it, Triggerfish-==with ich, we all get a little wound up sometimes and make mistakes. I had a heck of a time with all the math involved with hypo! Made my brain hurt LOL

 

[Triggerfish]

Got 4 frags from fellow reefer tonight, 2 are zoos/shrooms on LR.
i will quarantine these for 5 weeks in the frag qt.

he has a 90 bow with about 7 fish..his tank has a mild ich outbreak and they were not even aware. the hippo,coral beauty and gramma had spots that i noticed.

being an ich eradicator, i no longer miss these sort of things.
hopefully 5 weeks will be long enough for any cycsts that may be on the frags to release.

i was careful not to potentially cross contaminate anything as both QT's are next to my 55g sump.

still 1 chromis hanging in there.

 

[Triggerfish]

UPDATE

Been 3 months and haven't seen any sign of the parasite in main tank.

I have a mac angel that has been in quarantine for 4 weeks that I will be adding to main tank in a week. the angel was pre-treated with copper for a 2+week treatment.
what a battle i had trying to keep the NH3 in check in the 10g qt.

One week for the 1st test to see if I am ICH Free.

 

[cstamper65605]

Good luck with your maculosa, Triggerfish--keep us posted!