skp
New member
Some Dynos are known to eat Protozoas so maybe they eat Ich?
Ich must have an enemy.
- Thread starter jmm
- Start date
Some Dynos are known to eat Protozoas so maybe they eat Ich?
laga77
New member
You beat me to it. Pretty much what I was going to say except I have 28.
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
If it works for you, then don't change what you're doing. I had ich and lived with it and it ended badly when I treated for it so I'm by no means a expert but I do understand that it's not smart for me to invest thousands of dollars on fish (be it a single or multiple fish) knowing ich is present. BTW I currently have a 220g with 2 fish and a eel in it that 110% has ich in it
ThRoewer
New member
Ich has many enemies, mostly filter feeders. But it is highly unlikely that there is any life form that is specialized on going after it. Ich is just not plentiful enough in the oceans to make such a specialization viable.
As for living with ich: it works as long as you don't add new fish and as long as you have no stressor that may temporarily impair the fish's immune system.
If you want to add a new fish to such a system you would need to immunize it first by exposing it to the tank water for some time and then clean him up with TTM. I have done that (unintentionally) and it worked.
Otherwise healthy and fit fish will acquire full or at least a high level of immunity. If you remove those fish that are too stressed out in your tank and therefore constantly show ich you can eliminate ich in your system simply by depriving it of suitable hosts (I just finished reading through Peter Burgess' full dissertation and that is one conclusion I take from it).
My personal observations in the past confirm this as well: I had originally ich in my system but after removing the "carriers" it must have died out. When I later took water from that system for my larva tanks, none of the baby fish ever showed ich. And I raised clownfish by the thousands in dense populations. If there was ich present it would have caused massive losses.
Now, it is not that I would recommend trying any of the above on purpose, but to my experience, sometimes when you discover that you have a low level of ich in your tank, it is better to wait and see than to tear down the tank and try fix it in a panic.
It is much better to come up with a well thought out transition plan to fix it to keep the stress for the fish to a minimum.
As for living with ich: it works as long as you don't add new fish and as long as you have no stressor that may temporarily impair the fish's immune system.
If you want to add a new fish to such a system you would need to immunize it first by exposing it to the tank water for some time and then clean him up with TTM. I have done that (unintentionally) and it worked.
Otherwise healthy and fit fish will acquire full or at least a high level of immunity. If you remove those fish that are too stressed out in your tank and therefore constantly show ich you can eliminate ich in your system simply by depriving it of suitable hosts (I just finished reading through Peter Burgess' full dissertation and that is one conclusion I take from it).
My personal observations in the past confirm this as well: I had originally ich in my system but after removing the "carriers" it must have died out. When I later took water from that system for my larva tanks, none of the baby fish ever showed ich. And I raised clownfish by the thousands in dense populations. If there was ich present it would have caused massive losses.
Now, it is not that I would recommend trying any of the above on purpose, but to my experience, sometimes when you discover that you have a low level of ich in your tank, it is better to wait and see than to tear down the tank and try fix it in a panic.
It is much better to come up with a well thought out transition plan to fix it to keep the stress for the fish to a minimum.
seamonster124
New member
It's like the flu. Only infants and weak elderly may die from flu. (My apologies to most of you in this thread). :bounce2:
Happy healthy fish dont dies of ich.
Happy healthy fish dont dies of ich.
Happy healthy people don't die of AIDS either. It takes a little stress to put them over the edge.
seamonster124
New member
I see your point, but marine ich and shingles are really not alike. Shingles is caused by a virus that lies latent inside nerve ganglia, only to go through an infective cycle periodically. Marine ich is an external protozoan parasite that embeds in gill tissue and has a life cycle that involves phases that are mostly in the environment. The two pathogens are very different from a microbiology perspective, but they both seem to "hide" during different phases of their life cycle so I can see the visible similarities.
This a great thread. I am currently trying to rid my tank of marine ich once and for all. Management efforts have been futile for me. The remaining 5 survivors have a few weeks left in quarantine. They were put through TTM, and the display will be fallow for 72 days (maybe 80 because I am that paranoid, lol). I am excited to see if ich will be gone for good.
Do not discount aerosol transmission for these parasites. It is very much possible. My quarantine tank is in a separate room.
AIDS and HIV are two separate but related issues, and are nothing like marine ich. Untreated HIV infection usually leads to AIDS, which is the immune system deterioration and subsequent secondary infections that are usually fatal. Stress does not put them over the edge - the viral assault on the body's immune system does.
So yes, healthy people do die of AIDS. They contract HIV first, and it becomes AIDS if they do not take, or fail to respond to, the antiviral drugs.
I agree 100%
I disagree because I have seen it happen. The right strain in enough numbers and you are dead no matter what - that goes for both ich and the flu.
+1 There are different strains of ich (and flu) and given the right one, over time your fish will be toast. Stress is irrelevant, a confined home is highly relevant.
ThRoewer
New member
Well, if fish are exposed to non-lethal levels of Cryptocaryon and then allowed to build up their immunity without the presence of the parasite they are able to repel even a lethal levels of Cryptocaryon in a system. Burgess (1992) clearly demonstrated that in an experiment, where after an initial, non lethal infection and then kept for 3 month Cryptocaryon free, all test subjects had build up a 100% immunity even when exposed to lethal levels of Cryptocaryon. Even after 6 months without exposure to Cryptocaryon test fish still had enough immunity to only sustain a minor infection.
So I don't think the strain matters much but the previous exposure of a fish to a non lethal dose of Cryptocaryon and having the time for their immune system to build up immunity.
The above experiments were carried out with fish that have no exposure to Cryptocaryon in their natural environment. If such fish can gain full immunity I would expect fish that evolved in the presence of this parasite to be even more capable of building up immunity.
In my opinion stress is the primary factor to prevent fish from gaining immunity. Let's face it, in most tanks the fish are stressed out, either due to overcrowding with incompatible tank mates or otherwise stressful conditions.
So I don't think the strain matters much but the previous exposure of a fish to a non lethal dose of Cryptocaryon and having the time for their immune system to build up immunity.
The above experiments were carried out with fish that have no exposure to Cryptocaryon in their natural environment. If such fish can gain full immunity I would expect fish that evolved in the presence of this parasite to be even more capable of building up immunity.
In my opinion stress is the primary factor to prevent fish from gaining immunity. Let's face it, in most tanks the fish are stressed out, either due to overcrowding with incompatible tank mates or otherwise stressful conditions.
skp
New member
I'm curious on how Ich can hide on a fish. I saw a fish that had no spots at all be put into a tank with copper (so there should be no free swimming parasites) start to show the spots on the body several days later. I'm assuming that it was already on the fish in the gill tissue. Can Ich travel through a fish possibly through the blood stream?
skp
New member
My head is spinning from reading so many articles. Looking through my history, it might not have been from a search through google scholar (sorry for any confusion). The article that mentioned 90 days is from saltcorner and can be found by searching for "New Approach to Treating Marine Ich".
ThRoewer
New member
skp
New member
yes that's the one. I thought we weren't allowed to post links to external sites.:hmm5:
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