Ich must have an enemy.

Here is an interesting article:
Protective immunity in grouper (Epinephelus coioides) following exposure to or injection with Cryptocaryon irritans

Abstract
The protective immunity of grouper (Epinephelus coioides) against Cryptocaryon irritans was determined after immunization by surface exposure or intraperitoneal injection. Specific antibody titres of immunised fish serum and skin culture supernatant were determined by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay and immobilization assays. Specific antibody can be detected in some immunized fish at Week 1 and in all immunised fish at Week 2, and the peaks were between Weeks 4-6. Specific antibody was still evident in the serum and skin of immunised fish at Week 8, and provided good protection against challenge with C. irritans. These findings indicated that humoral and skin mucosal immunity play important roles in fish against C. irritans infection.
 
ThRoewer said:
Here is an interesting article:
Protective immunity in grouper (Epinephelus coioides) following exposure to or injection with Cryptocaryon irritans

Abstract
The protective immunity of grouper (Epinephelus coioides) against Cryptocaryon irritans was determined after immunization by surface exposure or intraperitoneal injection. Specific antibody titres of immunised fish serum and skin culture supernatant were determined by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay and immobilization assays. Specific antibody can be detected in some immunized fish at Week 1 and in all immunised fish at Week 2, and the peaks were between Weeks 4-6. Specific antibody was still evident in the serum and skin of immunised fish at Week 8, and provided good protection against challenge with C. irritans. These findings indicated that humoral and skin mucosal immunity play important roles in fish against C. irritans infection.
Click to expand...

The question remains: can the immunized fish still act as an intermediate host to some stage of the parasite?

Apparently invertebrates don't complete any stage over a period of time and the parasite eventually goes away. Right? So do the immune fish allow the life cycle to continue or does it die out without a host?
 
jmm said:
The question remains: can the immunized fish still act as an intermediate host to some stage of the parasite?

Apparently invertebrates don't complete any stage over a period of time and the parasite eventually goes away. Right? So do the immune fish allow the life cycle to continue or does it die out without a host?
Click to expand...

I guess if the fish is really immune, as in the parasite cannot host on any part of the fish for some reason, then it has to die out right? Unless it can lay dormant inside of the fish.

Has anyone had an outbreak in their tank, watched the fish fight it off completely, never added anything to the tank, and then saw it come back more than 72 days later?
 
jmm said:
The question remains: can the immunized fish still act as an intermediate host to some stage of the parasite?

Apparently invertebrates don't complete any stage over a period of time and the parasite eventually goes away. Right? So do the immune fish allow the life cycle to continue or does it die out without a host?
Click to expand...

No, a fish that is immune will kill off the parasites that try to attach. At least that's what I take away form that report.
This also coincides with my past observations.

The issue is that you can't really tell if a fish is only partially immune. I've seen that too with my grammas. They would scratch once in a while but never show any white spots. When I then moved them to my main system they caused an ich flare-up that affected some other fish as well but not all. By now it has died down, back to the occasional scratching.

I feel there are some fish who will easily acquire full immunity while there are others that will be immune enough to not be affected but still carriers.
This is for sure species related but also has some individual variation.

Still, I think immunity is a way to fight ich and have it eventually die out in a system. It is just not something I would recommend to a beginner who is likely to pick the wrong fish and not keep them the right way.
 
Living with ich is not something I would recommend. There is significant literature suggesting that immune fish can be carriers.
 
This is the best ich thread I've read on here. I've been very vocal about ich fallow periods and treatments but this thread says pretty much the same points I've tried to make but in a more educated way, well done Jmm.
There seems to be so much guess work going into recommendations given on here, and I really don't think you can apply treatments you would give in one situation to every situation. The default response on here is 72 days fallow and TTM. We have seen on more than a few occasions that Ich has been present after 72 days, we have also seen people lose fish within 24 hours of catching them to conduct ich treatments. Both these situations have happened to me which is why I am so vocal on the subject, not to cause arguments but to try and better understand what is happening.
There are a few questions that come up which never seem to be answered, the main one being about the 'silent carrier', if a fish is capable of being a carrier then is it possible for ich to survive all treatments in quarantine?
Should we also be putting all hard shelled inverts and coral through a 72 day quarantine period seeing as ich can survive for 72 days?
I had ich in my system, it was definitely there as I saw the classic symptoms on my Purple Tang, however none of my other 17 fish showed any symptoms. The tang would get a couple of spots every now and again but was eating fine and then they would disappear, no other fish seemed to be affected. I recently broke my system down to make a few changes and am going through the nitrogen cycle again, I caught the tang and put it in a small quarantine tank, where it has been for 3 weeks so far and will most likely be there for around another 3, a high stress situation for a fish like that.....it has not showed any signs of ich.
With regards to living with ich, if you provide a well fed, low stress environment then ich shouldn't be a problem IMO, I saw a tank on here where the OP said that he had ich in his tank but hadn't had an outbreak for 4 years, it was an amazing tank with beautiful angels and tangs, all looking really healthy as he'd obviously provided them with a low stress environment. He was slammed for being cruel to his fish....a couple of the people making these comments had well overstocked tanks, no ich but a highly stressful tank....which is worse?
 
kenpau said:
With regards to living with ich, if you provide a well fed, low stress environment then ich shouldn't be a problem IMO
Click to expand...

"If" being the word of significance here. I still stand by that the 99% rule is that hobbyists don't know what constitutes a low stress environment. Hence why I think it is a better practice to just preach the "do all you can within reason" approach to recommending QT to people rather than even mustering around with the idea that living with Ich is OK by any means.
 
Spar said:
"If" being the word of significance here. I still stand by that the 99% rule is that hobbyists don't know what constitutes a low stress environment. Hence why I think it is a better practice to just preach the "do all you can within reason" approach to recommending QT to people rather than even mustering around with the idea that living with Ich is OK by any means.
Click to expand...

A low stress environment is what we should all be striving to achieve, unfortunately I'd say the majority of reef keepers try to cram as many fish into their system as possible; and that is when ich will strike with a vengeance.
 
Does anyone know how a low dose of copper would mask Ich? How does a fish with Ich have it masked unless the Ich can lay dormant in the fish?
 
garlic in food has worked for me. 2 of my fish have been perfectly healthy ever since. I know there are a million opinions and only very few proven facts, and I was skeptical myself until I tried it and it worked. Maybe it was pure luck and magic, or whatever, but it worked. If the fish eats, it will be less stressed, therefore it makes some sense that if garlic can make a fish that won't eat..eat then how can that not help?
 
Garlic is a terrestrial plant and not part of the fishes' natural diet. Their metabolisms are not designed to process terrestrial proteins and lipids. While garlic has some merit in that it can entice a fish to eat, it should not be given to fish long-term, and it certainly has no effect on Cryptocaryon (ich).
 
skp said:
Does anyone know how a low dose of copper would mask Ich? How does a fish with Ich have it masked unless the Ich can lay dormant in the fish?
Click to expand...

Copper is a poor choice of medication as it is an immunosuppressant. It literally makes fish more susceptible to ich and other diseases.
A low dose copper treatment can weaken the parasite without killing it and just mask an infection for a while. But once the fish goes into a copper free environment the parasite can regain strength and come back.

sixpackgarage said:
garlic in food has worked for me. 2 of my fish have been perfectly healthy ever since. I know there are a million opinions and only very few proven facts, and I was skeptical myself until I tried it and it worked. Maybe it was pure luck and magic, or whatever, but it worked. If the fish eats, it will be less stressed, therefore it makes some sense that if garlic can make a fish that won't eat..eat then how can that not help?
Click to expand...

I thing there are also reports that voodoo rituals or human sacrifices have helped against ich though I would be doubtful :debi:

That garlic is ineffective is btw a proven fact and all so called success stories are just coincidental, likely to fish fighting it of on their own.
 
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