Ich POLL!

[smtank]

When the right stress is added to a system such as decline in water quality, aggression and over crowding, ich will rear it's ugly head. While everyone should properly QT their fish, unless you are treating every frag, invert and new pieces of LR the potential for introduction Marine ich is always present.

 

[THEDLO]

THEDLO: Thanks for starting this thread. You make the very same arguements I've been making for some months now. However, I don't know how to vote in your poll.
Here is my Purple Tang:



This pic was taken over two years ago. There were about nine or ten other fish in the tank with him. He was never qt'd. No other fish came down with ich. I have upgraded tanks twice since this pic. I have a total of 17 fish now, have never qt'd a single one and I have not had a single spot appear since he cleared up. And he is still alive and well today. I do believe my tank is ich free.

I know there are many self-proclaimed ich "experts" on this site- some have little to no actual experience with it, yet tell everyone that, at the sight of a single white spot, they MUST remove all fish and leave the tank fallow for 6, 8 or 10 weeks. While other "experts" have killed more fish with their qt and "treatment" than if they had left them alone to fight it off.

Good discussion. I hope others will chime in and make some thoughtful, rational arguements and be able to back it up with actual experiences rather than white papers and "studies" that may or may not have any real relevence to an actual tank in someones living room.

So, anyway, back to your poll......How do I vote? I had ich with fish in my tank, but I don't any longer. So, do I vote yes or no?

vote yes because i was never removed or addressed only it hasn't been able to completely/or continue to manifest its self. (not sure if thats the right way to describe it.) and thanks i was just curious cause im sure im not the only one who doesnt QT and hasnt lost any fish to the dreaded spot. :bounce2:

Oh just wait til a Powder Blue Tang or Hippo wipes out your tank then you'll know how serious a threat ich is. I've experienced such tragic disasters from not qurantining fish. Your luck will only last so long until it happens.

had one, (hippo) as stated above, and it did break out several times but never kicked it not sure of its current condition since i sold it back in august. i agree on it being quite uncomfortable since the fish is willing to scratch of on rocks, however i have yet to see the fatal part of having ich.

When the right stress is added to a system such as decline in water quality, aggression and over crowding, ich will rear it's ugly head. While everyone should properly QT their fish, unless you are treating every frag, invert and new pieces of LR the potential for introduction Marine ich is always present.

AGREED! :bounce1:

vote yes if it has been present in your tank and uve let nature do its thing and u can no longer/or rarely see ich.
and NO if u have treated for it.

please more experiences preferably the fatal ones (sorry for you loss.), and with plenty of detail, not just "i had a hippo and it died." give background detail on the tank and what was going on when u had ur experience and what u did and y u think it went bad.
please note that this is all speculation and if i ever lose a fish to ich ill be the first to admit it, and start a "QT everything" campaign :uzi: lol till then :bum:

 

[acts4me]

I have dealt with ich many times over the years I have been in the hobby. I tried everything in the beginning, removing the fish to qt, treating with maricide and all the other treatments available. Then about 4 years ago I came across Thera plus A food. Since that time I have never lost a fish to ich. I tell all my friends about it and many have used it also. As long as the ich is identified soon enough( and if you are watching your tank it should be) and the fish is still eating it will recover. I have not had an ich outbreak in any of my tanks in a long time. I usually feed thera plus a at least once a week. Not trying to sound like a comercial but it works for me. Oh and I vote yes I guess. LOL

 

[THEDLO]

I have dealt with ich many times over the years I have been in the hobby. I tried everything in the beginning, removing the fish to qt, treating with maricide and all the other treatments available. Then about 4 years ago I came across Thera plus A food. Since that time I have never lost a fish to ich. I tell all my friends about it and many have used it also. As long as the ich is identified soon enough( and if you are watching your tank it should be) and the fish is still eating it will recover. I have not had an ich outbreak in any of my tanks in a long time. I usually feed thera plus a at least once a week. Not trying to sound like a comercial but it works for me. Oh and I vote yes I guess. LOL

and now back to our show! hahaha no worries it was apart your ich experience thanks for voting!

 

[THEDLO]

+200 views and only 28 votes.... -__-

 

[steelhead77]

Oh just wait til a Powder Blue Tang or Hippo wipes out your tank then you'll know how serious a threat ich is. I've experienced such tragic disasters from not qurantining fish. Your luck will only last so long until it happens.

FYI...I've got a Hippo, Sailfin and a Chocolate plus a 7 inch Foxface in addition to the Purple in the pic. All added within a year of when that pic was taken. None have come down with it. Ich is NOT the scourge that some of you think it is. Poor water quality and stress is however.

I contend that ripping your tank apart and chasing a fish around with a net and then quarantining it in a poison (copper) solution is much more harmful to a fish that leaving it alone to fight it off on his own.

 

[syrinx]

I always will be a supporter of QT-but I agree that I would lose a fish before I would tear a tank apart to further stress it. Incoming fish are already stressed, and a period of isolation and inspection does not increase that. I am sad that at least one of the "clean tank" guys that had a ich outbreak this winter has not chimed in. Much more is to be learned from failure than by success. Science is not about ego- it is about disproving your hypothisis to make it stronger. There is no question of the science of the lifecycle of ich in lab conditions- however there has been no study, nor is the able to be one, with the variables of a fullt setup reeftank. Only by getting true numbers of success and failures- and the setups that caused them can the whole story be told.

 

[briankmarsh1980]

a strong healthy fish can live fine having the parasite, but all its takes is a little stress or a small change in its environment and the fish is toast

 

[THEDLO]

I always will be a supporter of QT-but I agree that I would lose a fish before I would tear a tank apart to further stress it. Incoming fish are already stressed, and a period of isolation and inspection does not increase that. I am sad that at least one of the "clean tank" guys that had a ich outbreak this winter has not chimed in. Much more is to be learned from failure than by success. Science is not about ego- it is about disproving your hypothisis to make it stronger. There is no question of the science of the lifecycle of ich in lab conditions- however there has been no study, nor is the able to be one, with the variables of a fullt setup reeftank. Only by getting true numbers of success and failures- and the setups that caused them can the whole story be told.

i love this explanation, if i had the money i would do an in depth study of ich in the reef tank as appose to just ich on a fish.

a strong healthy fish can live fine having the parasite, but all its takes is a little stress or a small change in its environment and the fish is toast

agreed.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Most of the people on this thread who think that fish can fight off ich have one thing in common: they seem to be experienced hobbyists and agree that good husbandry is vital in their success. I'm not going into a long spiel about my belief that ich is often mis-identified or try to explain the experiences of others. However, IMO, to give novice hobbyists (with little or no fishkeeping skills) the idea that ich isn't deadly and QT isn't vital is doing a great disservice to the beginning hobbyist. . Again, IMO.

 

[syrinx]

I agree mrtusk- on several points- first the identification thing. A foto online is not a diagnosis- a scrape and microscopy or fecal float etc is the way to identify what is going on. Also- newbies are likely to at first,to latch on to what agrees with what they want to do-so no matter how many of us say to QT incomming fish- it takes one person to say otherwise- for them to justify it. People who want to learn will read everything and make a judgment based on all of the facts as they are known.

 

[Gogandantess]

FYI...I've got a Hippo, Sailfin and a Chocolate plus a 7 inch Foxface in addition to the Purple in the pic. All added within a year of when that pic was taken. None have come down with it. Ich is NOT the scourge that some of you think it is. Poor water quality and stress is however.

I contend that ripping your tank apart and chasing a fish around with a net and then quarantining it in a poison (copper) solution is much more harmful to a fish that leaving it alone to fight it off on his own.

Disagree. Leaving it alone to fight it off while it spreads in your display is not a good idea.

 

[THEDLO]

Most of the people on this thread who think that fish can fight off ich have one thing in common: they seem to be experienced hobbyists and agree that good husbandry is vital in their success. I'm not going into a long spiel about my belief that ich is often mis-identified or try to explain the experiences of others. However, IMO, to give novice hobbyists (with little or no fishkeeping skills) the idea that ich isn't deadly and QT isn't vital is doing a great disservice to the beginning hobbyist. . Again, IMO.

true thats why i threw in the disclaimer at the beginning, this is purely opinion based on my observations, and is not a rule for which people should measure there practices with. reefing takes skill and patience, and wisdom to know when to intervene or when to wait and just watch. ( control freaks may have a problem with this, tho we all are to some degree control freaks :wildone: )

but i also strongly agree with the quote below, simply cause when i started out i did what convenienced me, till the internet and books became my most valuable tool.

I agree mrtusk- on several points- first the identification thing. A foto online is not a diagnosis- a scrape and microscopy or fecal float etc is the way to identify what is going on. Also- newbies are likely to at first,to latch on to what agrees with what they want to do-so no matter how many of us say to QT incomming fish- it takes one person to say otherwise- for them to justify it. People who want to learn will read everything and make a judgment based on all of the facts as they are known.

Disagree. Leaving it alone to fight it off while it spreads in your display is not a good idea.

this is what made me want to start this thread. on different occasions (if u read all the posts) i would have one fish be afflicted and yet none of my other fish would share in the same misfortune.

 

[djze]

through out the years i have lost more fish in qt than in my display right now i have 2 new fish quarantined in a tank connected to the main system witch have ich none of my fish in the main display caught it and the infested fish are overcoming it but my system is well matured and consists of 600 gallon plus a lot of people fail with ich normally in the beginning because of unmatured systems & the size of the system plays a big role to but there is certain species that if you don't pull out and qt will be certain death so in reality i favor both methods if you contract a heavy virus and don't go to the doctor do you think your going to overcome it easily i believe if a fish is truly in bad shape we have to assist it in the best way possible

 

[THEDLO]

just came across this thought id share it

What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it is able to kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen. About 40% of fish seem able to develop this immunity.

interesting because many people say that fish do not develop an immunity and there fore all must be QT'd maybe thats what many of us have gone through, and like Mr Tuskfish said our husbandry is what made the difference.

 

[briankmarsh1980]

Why risk not QTing everything that goes into the DT?
I never QTed anything for over a year.......
Now my tank is free of everything
I removed all fish treated and let my tank sit fishless for 2 months
And now I know for sure that I don't have to ever worry.
I put all inverts in QT for 30 days
Fish go through 1 week of para guard. 1 week of prozi pro and 4 weeks of copper followed by a 2 week observation period before ever going into my DT
Its a long process by its worth it knowing that my fish will be healthy and parasite free.
I think QT is a must IMO.

 

[Riteoff]

^^^ that is impressive QT practices, i wish i was that disciplined.

I have been reefing now for 2 years and figured id ad my opinion to the millions already on the net. I have had more than my fair share of ich outbreaks and always with tangs.

My first outbreak was caused by a 2yr old Hippo tang i acquired from a local reefer who had a world known tank until he tore it down. The tang was in my tank for 1 day when the ich spots showed, within 1 day after that my Powder blue was covered. With only a 10 gallon on hand i put the PBT into QT. 2 weeks into that poor water quality killed him.

The next bad case i found was a very well sorted local store with the sexiest, largest(6.5")long black nose tang ive ever seen. So covered in spots i figured he would be dead in a week. After he was moved to a quieter tank in the store he has now been spot free for 1 month and has never looked better.

I also have a recent PBT come down with ich 2 days into the DT. I moved and dropped the salinity slowly to 1.011 hoping i could save him. Within 1 week he was spot free, still eating well and his colours started to really pop! I kept up with the low salinity, water checks and good diet only to wake up to a completely covered fish 2 days ago(roughly 2.5-3 weeks into treatment). I have decided i will start to slowly raise the salinity and bring him back into the DT.

Im seriously starting to believe that ich is a lot more complicated and misunderstood than i previously figured. Ive done so much reading on ich over the last month i swear i have it! But after all the readings and watching of fish contract, lose it, get it, lose it for months i truley believe every tank has ich to some degree or another, like the flu that kills thousands of people every "season" if i a fish has the will to live it will. I find it hard to believe that only certain fish have immunity and others will die on contact. More than likely every fish that dies or tank wiped out other factors are to blame or hinder the fishes natural defence. I also think that in small controlled doses healthy fish of all species will develop a tolerance and or immunity.

I will start to QT all new fish as i found it helps adjust them to feeding, noise and handling etc, but if ich can survive hidden in the gills, 6+ months in a QT tank aint saving my display babies.

I would also like to ask anyone with a tang stocked tank who has never had a case of ich please, chase a fish around the tank with a net, stir up your sand, drop your temp 5deg in 1hr and let me know what happens. I think that would be a great test and shouldnt put any thriving fish to harm

 

[THEDLO]

Why risk not QTing everything that goes into the DT?
I never QTed anything for over a year.......
Now my tank is free of everything
I removed all fish treated and let my tank sit fishless for 2 months
And now I know for sure that I don't have to ever worry.
I put all inverts in QT for 30 days
Fish go through 1 week of para guard. 1 week of prozi pro and 4 weeks of copper followed by a 2 week observation period before ever going into my DT
Its a long process by its worth it knowing that my fish will be healthy and parasite free.
I think QT is a must IMO.

well originally be cause it was too much trouble to go through i felt, and thankfully i never suffered any losses, and as time went on i developed a system that seemed to keep the fish healthy and ich immune ( said loosely )

 

[briankmarsh1980]

^^^ that is impressive QT practices, i wish i was that disciplined.

I have been reefing now for 2 years and figured id ad my opinion to the millions already on the net. I have had more than my fair share of ich outbreaks and always with tangs.

My first outbreak was caused by a 2yr old Hippo tang i acquired from a local reefer who had a world known tank until he tore it down. The tang was in my tank for 1 day when the ich spots showed, within 1 day after that my Powder blue was covered. With only a 10 gallon on hand i put the PBT into QT. 2 weeks into that poor water quality killed him.

The next bad case i found was a very well sorted local store with the sexiest, largest(6.5")long black nose tang ive ever seen. So covered in spots i figured he would be dead in a week. After he was moved to a quieter tank in the store he has now been spot free for 1 month and has never looked better.

I also have a recent PBT come down with ich 2 days into the DT. I moved and dropped the salinity slowly to 1.011 hoping i could save him. Within 1 week he was spot free, still eating well and his colours started to really pop! I kept up with the low salinity, water checks and good diet only to wake up to a completely covered fish 2 days ago(roughly 2.5-3 weeks into treatment). I have decided i will start to slowly raise the salinity and bring him back into the DT.

Im seriously starting to believe that ich is a lot more complicated and misunderstood than i previously figured. Ive done so much reading on ich over the last month i swear i have it! But after all the readings and watching of fish contract, lose it, get it, lose it for months i truley believe every tank has ich to some degree or another, like the flu that kills thousands of people every "season" if i a fish has the will to live it will. I find it hard to believe that only certain fish have immunity and others will die on contact. More than likely every fish that dies or tank wiped out other factors are to blame or hinder the fishes natural defence. I also think that in small controlled doses healthy fish of all species will develop a tolerance and or immunity.

I will start to QT all new fish as i found it helps adjust them to feeding, noise and handling etc, but if ich can survive hidden in the gills, 6+ months in a QT tank aint saving my display babies.

I would also like to ask anyone with a tang stocked tank who has never had a case of ich please, chase a fish around the tank with a net, stir up your sand, drop your temp 5deg in 1hr and let me know what happens. I think that would be a great test and shouldnt put any thriving fish to harm

Ich has life cycles its not that it hides in gills but in the water and sand it attaches to the fish then reproduces and then the cycle starts over the parasite is smart and will learn your light cycle and will actually jump off the fish before the lights come on and go back after they shut off. So you may not see it during the day.
It takes about 4 to 6 weeks in a fishless tank to totally die off. It serves no purpose really to QT a fish that is going into a tank with fish that have never been QTed. You either do it right or don't do it at all IMO

 

[jimmyj7090]

I did a full hypo / fallow treatment ending in december 2005. No signs of ick since. Plenty of stressors over the yrs, but no spots.