Interested in Vodka dosing, have questions!

Well, Extrapolating from the cited study to a conclusion distinguishing the use of ethanol or acetic acid in a reef tank is a leap of galactic proportion possibly into a black hole.:strange::uhoh3:
The study is for fresh industrial waste water and contrasts aerobic vs anaerobic methods in industrial waste water treatment applications economically..The process relies on methanogenic bacteria ,high additions of carbonate to manage ph ,significant nitrogen and phosphorous additions to mange the bacteria and fluidized or packed bed systems.
None of this is relevant to a reef tank in any way I can discern.:hmm3:

I don't believe the ethanol at the dose we use will inhibit anaerobic bacterial growth either . It will encourage it ,ime but I'll look ant the other study referenced again to see if it gives a clue. :confused:

BTW, vodka is now cheaper than vodka in terms of carbon content in my neck of the woods based on new higher prices for vinegar. It wasn't much of a difference in the first place.
Not a problem Josh,debating these issues is healthy and will,it is hoped,add to our understanding of how to better care for the animals we keep.:spin3::fish2:
 
Tom you are making work real hard here, but it is in the interest of the hobby. ;)


Effects of specific inhibitors on anammox and denitrification in marine sediments. (2007)

Jensen MM, Thamdrup B, Dalsgaard T.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1907100/?tool=pubmed

The complete article is available at this link.


Abstract

The effects of three metabolic inhibitors (acetylene, methanol, and allylthiourea [ATU]) on the pathways of N2 production were investigated by using short anoxic incubations of marine sediment with a 15N isotope technique. Acetylene inhibited ammonium oxidation through the anammox pathway as the oxidation rate decreased exponentially with increasing acetylene concentration; the rate decay constant was 0.10+/-0.02 microM-1, and there was 95% inhibition at approximately 30 microM. Nitrous oxide reduction, the final step of denitrification, was not sensitive to acetylene concentrations below 10 microM. However, nitrous oxide reduction was inhibited by higher concentrations, and the sensitivity was approximately one-half the sensitivity of anammox (decay constant, 0.049+/-0.004 microM-1; 95% inhibition at approximately 70 microM). Methanol specifically inhibited anammox with a decay constant of 0.79+/-0.12 mM-1, and thus 3 to 4 mM methanol was required for nearly complete inhibition. This level of methanol stimulated denitrification by approximately 50%. ATU did not have marked effects on the rates of anammox and denitrification. The profile of inhibitor effects on anammox agreed with the results of studies of the process in wastewater bioreactors, which confirmed the similarity between the anammox bacteria in bioreactors and natural environments. Acetylene and methanol can be used to separate anammox and denitrification, but the effects of these compounds on nitrification limits their use in studies of these processes in systems where nitrification is an important source of nitrate. The observed differential effects of acetylene and methanol on anammox and denitrification support our current understanding of the two main pathways of N2 production in marine sediments and the use of 15N isotope methods for their quantification
 
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Perhaps one of our chemists can help put the concentrations needed to inhibit anammox when compared to dosing in a reef tank. I'm not sure if common dosing procedures are high enough to cause inhibition using ethanol given the information provided. ;)

Yes ethanol is not methanol, but close enough for me considering all the fresh water studies discover both ethanol and methanol inhibit them. This makes the leap a little less. :)
 
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So ive been reading a few threads and i noticed people are using Vinegar + kalk in their top off. I know adding Vinegar to the kalk resivoir will make it so u can saturate the kalk making it go up to 3tsp per gallon (right?)

I was thinking about starting up kalk instead of my 2part and being interested in Vinegar or Vodka can i go the Kalk + Vinegar route and knock the both out at the same time?

I guess im lost at where i would start?
I would get a pump for ATO with the kalk and roughly a 15g drum to keep it in.

Whats a good starting ml for vinegar? Ive been seeing alot of people start out with 15ml and ramping it up slowly weekly until #s are undetectable then keeping it there for a maintenance level.

Sorry for all the questions guys. Just trying to learn other techniques and this is usually the best spot for it ;) :D
 
hi all,

if i was to dose vinegar , what type ? how much?

i have about 325 gallons ... nitrate 1.5 phosphates .3

is there a decent guide on strategy and technique with dosing it???
 
Adding vodka and vinegar to limewater should be fine for dosing carbon. How much water does the tank evaporate in a day? A reasonable measurement of that will help us estimate how much to add.

Distilled white vinegar is good for carbon dosing. In the US, it's usually at 5% concentration, and it has about 1/8 the carbon content of vodka, by volume. So I'd use the numbers for vodka in this article:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

and I might multiply by four, to be conservative.
 
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lolgranny said:
Also, once i get to my maintenance level with the Vinegar would it be ok to put it on a dosing pump such as the Bubble magus doser? Would you feel safe doing so or not?

I noticed steve is using it, Steve are you having any issues with it?

Thank you guys
and
Merry Christmas! :) Hope Santa brings you all a bunch of goodies! :D
Click to expand...


Hi lolgranny

I am using the Bubble Magus doser for my Ca, Alk and now Vinegar dosing and having no issues at all
I started using it with the Vodka, but only dosing 3 mils, meant I could only dose twice in a 24 hour period and with smaller amounts like that, the doser would not be extremely accurate
hence swapping 1 mil of vodka for 8 mils of Vinegar meant I could distribute that over 8 doses in 24 hours of 1 mil each time, and now using 16 mils of vodka can dose 2 mils x 8 doses per day

the higher the volume of liquid you dispence with the BM doser, the more accurate it is

I use Heinz distilled white vinegar in the 1000 mil bottle size, make a hole in the top of the cap, force the line through it, and dispense direct from that bottle

Steve
 
I still think a leap from anammox related chemolithic autoptrophic bacteria in waste water applications which reduce ammonia to nitrate to an inhibition of the facultative heterotrophic denitrifying anerobic bacterial activity in a reeftank is a jump that even Starbuck or Luke Skywalker would admire.
In fact I think it's a pretty big jump to assume anammox activity occurs much iin many reef tanks anyway since their are usually plenty of ammonia oxidizers and competing facultative heterotrophs around.

Oh well frak it. May the force be with you Cliff and Josh . So say we all.
 
bertoni said:
Adding vodka and vinegar to limewater should be fine for dosing carbon. How much water does the tank evaporate in a day? A reasonable measurement of that will help us estimate how much to add.

Distilled white vinegar is good for carbon dosing. In the US, it's usually at 5% concentration, and it has about 1/8 the carbon content of vodka, by volume. So I'd use the numbers for vodka in this article:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

and I might multiply by four, to be conservative.
Click to expand...

Hey bertoni!

I roughly evaporate 3/4g on my 40gtanks breeder. Unsure about the 180same as of not since its still in the build state. If I can knock out vinegar and kalk in one swoop I would b more then happy that's why im asking. Im sorry to sound like a rookie, I've only done the basica....water changes...dosing...no more no less and no issues. Im more or less asking because my brothers tank is having issues and if its easier it wont be so *ard" for him lol.

I appreciate the help and advice. Its a pain figuring everything out haha
 
bertoni said:
Is this post in the right thread? I'm confused.
Click to expand...

Me too. Sorry. Right thread wrong post sequence. Lost track of time and didn't hit the refresh button before posting it.,Lot's of family at the house. Should be around post #26 responding to Cliff's introduction and interpretation of some anammox studies and extrapolations to vodka and vinegar dosing.
 
tmz said:
Me too. Sorry. Right thread wrong post sequence. Lost track of time and didn't hit the refresh button before posting it.,Lot's of family at the house. Should be around post #26 responding to Cliff's introduction and interpretation of some anammox studies and extrapolations to vodka and vinegar dosing.
Click to expand...
:D I was wondering how many mai tais I hade. Lol. Merry christmas brudda! U guys are awesome! Love ya
 
tmz said:
Oh well frak it. May the force be with you Cliff and Josh . So say we all.
Click to expand...

:beer:


Merry Christmas to all. :)


PS: I still would like to know what the ethanol concentrations in the articles I posted relate to in a reef tank when converted to ppm. I don't know what the ppm of ethanol might be for the average hobbyist dosing it. :)
 
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Just curious, why don't we dilute the vodka or vinegar like 10 or more times to have a more accurate daily dose by automatic doser?
 
Just curious, why don't we dilute the vodka or vinegar like 10 or more times to have a more accurate daily dose by automatic doser?


The alcohol in the vodka keeps bacteria at bay; the ph of the vinegar keeps them at bay. Diluting either too much will let them proliferate before dosing.
 
HighlandReefer said:
PS: I still would like to know what the ethanol concentrations in the articles I posted relate to in a reef tank when converted to ppm. I don't know what the ppm of ethanol might be for the average hobbyist dosing it. :)
Click to expand...

1 mL of vodka added to 100 gallons to tank water = 0.4 g of ethanol in 378 L = 1.06 mg/l = 1 ppm. :)

How long that 1 ppm (or 10 ppm, or whatever is really dosed) lasts before dropping isn't clear. :)

Are there other conversions you need?

1 ppm = 1 mg/l = 0.022 mM = 22 uM
 
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