is it really possible to be ethical in the fish business

[ml708]

first off, many people buy on impulse or treat their fish as replaceable ornaments, as a fad, or to show off.

this generates more revenue for fish shops as they get to sell more fish as fish start to die and people buy them again.

if everyone could keep fish well, they would have a limited amount of space to keep more fish.

and if one is a fish shop owner, one is concerned about turning over fish rapidly to generate profits.

 

[accordsirh22]

you clearly do not have a good understanding of how a shop can run. you don't only sell fish. it is in your best interest for the customers to not kill fish and be successful.

 

[syrinx]

agreed. I never worried about turnover. You stock some fish for turnover- and they are starter fish like tetras and danios, damsels and clowns- but overall I would get what I liked and what people were into- and that created sufficient turns. Everyone must remember that ethical is a personal definition-things you think are ethical others may not- including keeping fish. And no one is correct to anyone else but themselves.

 

[ml708]

you clearly do not have a good understanding of how a shop can run. you don't only sell fish. it is in your best interest for the customers to not kill fish and be successful.

I do understand that some shops also do tank setup and maintenance as well as carry some other items such as test kits, food etc.

But how do these shops generate enough income?

 

[FinzAquatics]

The markup on fish is quite high for most retail shops. Upwards of 300% for livestock.

 

[ml708]

The markup on fish is quite high for most retail shops. Upwards of 300% for livestock.

agreed, but thats due to freight costs, mortality, rent and utilities so I can understand. I doubt most fish shops are there to rip people off haha

 

[billsreef]

When it comes to fish turnover, I always found it better to have my customers educated to the point of not constantly loosing and replacing their fish. Those customers stay in the hobby, come in the shop on weekly basis and often keep buying more tanks, larger tanks, and grow their hobby. The ones that are constantly loosing and replacing fish just drop out of the hobby after a year or two...not really good for business.

The markup on fish is quite high for most retail shops. Upwards of 300% for livestock.

Keep in mind, just how much money does a shop make with a 300% markup on something like a &1.79 swordtail after you take out shipping, electric, rent, food, staff, etc. The high dollar marine fish are typically not marked up much more than dry goods...and certainly cost more to have in the store.

 

[ml708]

When it comes to fish turnover, I always found it better to have my customers educated to the point of not constantly loosing and replacing their fish. Those customers stay in the hobby, come in the shop on weekly basis and often keep buying more tanks, larger tanks, and grow their hobby. The ones that are constantly loosing and replacing fish just drop out of the hobby after a year or two...not really good for business.



Keep in mind, just how much money does a shop make with a 300% markup on something like a &1.79 swordtail after you take out shipping, electric, rent, food, staff, etc. The high dollar marine fish are typically not marked up much more than dry goods...and certainly cost more to have in the store.

I hope that is so, and if that works for your business model, thats great!

However some shops sell mainly fish and very little dry goods due to different marketing focus. These are the ones I worry about.

Actually where I'm from, swordtails sell for around 2 cents each, and thats at the fish store where they are feeders. Suppliers get them in even cheaper! So 1.79 in the US is a huge increase in price.

I've been lucky enough to be privy to price lists of fish like bandits (rather high dollar imo) and the mark up is 400% where I'm at. But I can't blame the shops. They have to cover costs at the end of the day.

 

[power boat jim]

What exactly are you asking, are you talking about ethical treatment of animals or ethical treatment of customers?

 

[tilo]

I follow one thing. Be as truthful and honest as you can to customers and never be afraid to tell them no.

Doing so teaches them what they can't and can have, raises life expectancy of fish, keeps people in the hobby (main goal). Not selling fish everyday to the same person.

 

[ml708]

What exactly are you asking, are you talking about ethical treatment of animals or ethical treatment of customers?

I believe that customers can be treated ethically while maintaining a healthy profit at the same time. Willing buyer willing seller, as long as you are selling fish that you get from reliable sources barring events outside your control and goods that you know will work to the best of your ability.

Its about ethical treatment of the animals, in that many end up sold to irresponsible owners (which is most fish keepers imo, those who end up on rc and actually care to find out about their animals are the minority).

 

[Eric Boerner]

Supply and demand. If hobbyists aren't demanding strictly aquacultured ornamentals, then LFS' will continue to stock the lower priced and easier to get wild trade items.

Since only around 10% of hobbyists actually understand they can request aquacultured fish and coral from the LFS', the demand just isn't there. Although we are definitely eons ahead of where we were 10 years ago.

What needs to happen is one of these yahoo Animal Planet aquarium shows needs to grow a pair and actually stand for what they "say" they preach. Only supply their clients with sustainable AC fish/coral and make a huge deal about it on TV. They do not, because they don't practice what they preach.

In 10 years, I'd like to see strictly AC frags and colonies sitting in LFS' at the very least. Fish will be more of a mountain to climb. It's hard to tell someone you can't import "live" Tangs into the continental US, when you can walk into an islander's farmer market and pick up a dozen for $2.

 

[ml708]

Supply and demand. If hobbyists aren't demanding strictly aquacultured ornamentals, then LFS' will continue to stock the lower priced and easier to get wild trade items.

Since only around 10% of hobbyists actually understand they can request aquacultured fish and coral from the LFS', the demand just isn't there. Although we are definitely eons ahead of where we were 10 years ago.

What needs to happen is one of these yahoo Animal Planet aquarium shows needs to grow a pair and actually stand for what they "say" they preach. Only supply their clients with sustainable AC fish/coral and make a huge deal about it on TV. They do not, because they don't practice what they preach.

In 10 years, I'd like to see strictly AC frags and colonies sitting in LFS' at the very least. Fish will be more of a mountain to climb. It's hard to tell someone you can't import "live" Tangs into the continental US, when you can walk into an islander's farmer market and pick up a dozen for $2.

yes, one thing I would like to see is a stockist of fish that are all aquacultured. Currently only a few species are aquacultured (but the number is increasing).

As a fish shop owner, why would one pay a premium for these fish when consumers want to pay the lowest price possible? and its also much more economical to order from the suppliers who have the longest stocklists, and to get from as few suppliers as possible to cut costs.

 

[billsreef]

As a fish shop owner, why would one pay a premium for these fish when consumers want to pay the lowest price possible?

Simple, mortality are significantly lower on the aquacultured fish. Both DOA and longer term in shop. You also get some satisifaction when customers come in telling you "X" shops fish always die, and yours always live, so they are only going to buy your fish

 

[ml708]

Simple, mortality are significantly lower on the aquacultured fish. Both DOA and longer term in shop. You also get some satisifaction when customers come in telling you "X" shops fish always die, and yours always live, so they are only going to buy your fish

thats if they are willing to pay the premium for these fish in the first place! many come into the hobby not realising how much it costs to sustain it.

I do agree. I have a captive bred scribble which is extremely hardy

 

[billsreef]

thats if they are willing to pay the premium for these fish in the first place!

True, for both some LFS owners and the customers. I've hard time convincing some LFS owners I've worked for that aquacultured were actually the better deal, simply because they couldn't look past the check they had to cut to see that the 90% + survival rate was actually a profit maker. With customers, you can put a tank of aquacultured clowns next to a tank of wild caught, explain the reasons the aquacultured were better, and many would simply buy the cheaper wild caught...several times over. I've actually done that experiment at one LFS when they let me bring in the aquacultured...also proved my point that the increased profit on the aquacultured was worth buying just the aquacultured when available for a given species.

 

[ml708]

True, for both some LFS owners and the customers. I've hard time convincing some LFS owners I've worked for that aquacultured were actually the better deal, simply because they couldn't look past the check they had to cut to see that the 90% + survival rate was actually a profit maker. With customers, you can put a tank of aquacultured clowns next to a tank of wild caught, explain the reasons the aquacultured were better, and many would simply buy the cheaper wild caught...several times over. I've actually done that experiment at one LFS when they let me bring in the aquacultured...also proved my point that the increased profit on the aquacultured was worth buying just the aquacultured when available for a given species.

thats the sad truth and also the reason why I feel its very hard for this hobby to be sustainable

 

[Eric Boerner]

As a fish shop owner, why would one pay a premium for these fish when consumers want to pay the lowest price possible? and its also much more economical to order from the suppliers who have the longest stocklists, and to get from as few suppliers as possible to cut costs.

I absolutely have to call BS here. Your argument is valid for 'some' fish, but not for coral, not at all.

I understand the need to make your business viable. But I also know for a fact that the 'poor' LFS' are also ripping the aquaculture business off blindly, almost criminally. Yes, ORA aquacultured pieces come at a premium because they can only grow so many in a month. But I also know that regionally, in almost every corner of the US, there is viable and thriving homebased AC market. When someone comes into your LFS and says, "Hey, I want to supply you with my ORA cultured frags that I grew, at half the cost you'd pay them", typically the answer is, "Sure, for store credit at 10% of what I'll sell it for." There is no way you'd tell your ORA supplier that. The homebased AC business then has no viable means of selling locally, so they EBay, or do internet sales. The AC market is huge and thriving, but LFS' are missing the mark completely because of greed.

 

[ml708]

I absolutely have to call BS here. Your argument is valid for 'some' fish, but not for coral, not at all.

I understand the need to make your business viable. But I also know for a fact that the 'poor' LFS' are also ripping the aquaculture business off blindly, almost criminally. Yes, ORA aquacultured pieces come at a premium because they can only grow so many in a month. But I also know that regionally, in almost every corner of the US, there is viable and thriving homebased AC market. When someone comes into your LFS and says, "Hey, I want to supply you with my ORA cultured frags that I grew, at half the cost you'd pay them", typically the answer is, "Sure, for store credit at 10% of what I'll sell it for." There is no way you'd tell your ORA supplier that. The homebased AC business then has no viable means of selling locally, so they EBay, or do internet sales. The AC market is huge and thriving, but LFS' are missing the mark completely because of greed.

I would agree partially with your statement on corals, as many exotic frags are propagated via AC. This is a step in the right direction and indeed many stores which sell corals engage in this themselves as it does not require much space to grow SPS frags for example. And most importantly, these frags are rather affordable. Perhaps in the future, we might become totally self sustainable wrt SPS.

Hopefully the day can come sooner when we are self sustainable on fish too. And I hope that day comes sooner enough but with the cost of larval culture vs ease and cost of getting wild fish, I am not entirely optimistic at the moment.

 

[Eric Boerner]

Hopefully the day can come sooner when we are self sustainable on fish too. And I hope that day comes sooner enough but with the cost of larval culture vs ease and cost of getting wild fish, I am not entirely optimistic at the moment.

Again, I totally disagree with you on the cost of AC fish vs. Wild.

The clownfish market is a prime example. The cost to purchase a box lot of plain ORA Ocellaris is far less than a box lot of wild caught. Big name pet stores (PetCo) no longer bring in anything but ORA clowns. The quanitity and quality of those fish are far superior to wild sources. Plus the store price reflects that they are plentiful.

The only limiting factor for AC fish is the variety. ORA is doing an amazing job of bringing new species of highly desired ornamental fish into the AC market.

And again, if a local clownfish breeder wanted to be a constant supply of fish, the LFS would rip them off...