Is it true...
- Thread starter Random Aquarist
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Random Aquarist
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cschweitzer
New member
I'm really not going to debate this...I voted "Yes" and I have hundreds of reasons. Unfortunately, this topic was covered by me a month ago and I stated clearly and in very much detail why I felt this way. Anyone is more than welcome to go look up my comments, heck even quote me from them over here. I'm really not going to go into it because it would take me ten pages of this thread to explain all that I already have.
By the way, my picasso percs took 9+ months to host a RBTA and only did so because I added a wild caught juvi that was hosting a BTA into the tank(within 5 minutes the TB pics were in there with him).
This is just one of the many examples and resoning and the only one I have the desire to write. And I don't necessarily think that it has to do with cojones or joking, more that they didn't want to be attacked by the 28 people sitting with these guys in their sights(not that either of you would), but to test their manhood over a debate where neither side is or can be right could be misconstrued(don't know if the spelling is right) as a challenge or lack of respect.
Instinct is impossible to debate, believe me, I tried. Then they just changed definitions on me in the middle and made me completely lose interest in this debate. I do feel that I gave many many reasons and points as to why I believe what I believe.
By the way, my picasso percs took 9+ months to host a RBTA and only did so because I added a wild caught juvi that was hosting a BTA into the tank(within 5 minutes the TB pics were in there with him).
This is just one of the many examples and resoning and the only one I have the desire to write. And I don't necessarily think that it has to do with cojones or joking, more that they didn't want to be attacked by the 28 people sitting with these guys in their sights(not that either of you would), but to test their manhood over a debate where neither side is or can be right could be misconstrued(don't know if the spelling is right) as a challenge or lack of respect.
Instinct is impossible to debate, believe me, I tried. Then they just changed definitions on me in the middle and made me completely lose interest in this debate. I do feel that I gave many many reasons and points as to why I believe what I believe.
GSMguy
New member
cschweitzer, i dont think anybody is going to attack, here is my thoughts.
i have seen plenty of WC percs not go into BTA many people have that problem, many do not.
some go right in some do not but, it has nothing to do with whether they were born in the tank.
TB clowns host too many things for me to beleive there is any TRUE or REAL difference.
It would take MANY generations of TB clowns, being kept away from all hosts to get them to start to forget something that has taken hundreds of thousands of years to happen. Instinct is much stronger than you or i can imagine.
OT I took this sociology class that tought that most of human behavior is instinct and humans posses the ability to reason, clowns do not.
this class theorized that most of the behaivior we percieve in ourselves to be learned behaivior is actully controlled by deep instinct. i didnt really agree with it all and we only talked about it one day but the basis for it is the fact that instinct/genetic behaivior is very aparent in twins seperated at birth.. but it just points to the streangth of instinct.
i have seen plenty of WC percs not go into BTA many people have that problem, many do not.
some go right in some do not but, it has nothing to do with whether they were born in the tank.
TB clowns host too many things for me to beleive there is any TRUE or REAL difference.
It would take MANY generations of TB clowns, being kept away from all hosts to get them to start to forget something that has taken hundreds of thousands of years to happen. Instinct is much stronger than you or i can imagine.
OT I took this sociology class that tought that most of human behavior is instinct and humans posses the ability to reason, clowns do not.
this class theorized that most of the behaivior we percieve in ourselves to be learned behaivior is actully controlled by deep instinct. i didnt really agree with it all and we only talked about it one day but the basis for it is the fact that instinct/genetic behaivior is very aparent in twins seperated at birth.. but it just points to the streangth of instinct.
55semireef
Moved On
Just like OrionN said, percs do not naturally host RBTAs in the wild. If its not their natural host, of course you should expect them not to host immediately. If they do, heck, congratulations but if they don't, its nothing unheard of.
Now to look up those statements your typed in the other discussion which btw was only two pages long.
With all the TB clowns I have owned, I have never had any problems of them hosting. They all had the strong instinct to host their anemone. Of course I provided their natural anemone but they still did not hesitate to host. I don't understand why you say TB clowns will have problems of hosting anemones. Care to explain?
Ditto from what I just said.
It seems like you were contradicting yourself about instincts playing apart.
Like I have said before, I bought two Clarkii clowns from Petco and soon as I released them in the tank, they dove right into my blue Haddoni. These were TB clowns.
And here is the thread for reference to prove that I got all those quotes there:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083738&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Random Aquarist
New member
30-7
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
I voted no.
In the wild, the eggs hatch into larvae, which float in the plankton for a few to a few weeks before settling and metamorphizing into juveniles.
At that point, the clowns instinctually find a host anemone. This sure suggests that being hosted by an anemone is a natural behavior that is not learned or taught - it's something clowns have ingrained. [parents are far away, never followed them through their planktonic stage]
The fact that most TB clowns have never seen a predator [or an anemone] along with mis-match of clown + anemone is probably some of the reason why we hear of people having issues with hosting.
I mean, having see a grouper, perhaps the wild clowns just are much more stressed in general and thus immediately take to defensive behavior where the TB is unaware of the dangers a wild clown encounters daily.
I also wonder about the reality that there's a lot of anemones [sadly] that die within the first year of captivity. While it's not obvious to us, perhaps the clowns are aware of stressed/unhealthy anemones and don't find them attractive? Just tossing out the idea ...
In the wild, the eggs hatch into larvae, which float in the plankton for a few to a few weeks before settling and metamorphizing into juveniles.
At that point, the clowns instinctually find a host anemone. This sure suggests that being hosted by an anemone is a natural behavior that is not learned or taught - it's something clowns have ingrained. [parents are far away, never followed them through their planktonic stage]
The fact that most TB clowns have never seen a predator [or an anemone] along with mis-match of clown + anemone is probably some of the reason why we hear of people having issues with hosting.
I mean, having see a grouper, perhaps the wild clowns just are much more stressed in general and thus immediately take to defensive behavior where the TB is unaware of the dangers a wild clown encounters daily.
I also wonder about the reality that there's a lot of anemones [sadly] that die within the first year of captivity. While it's not obvious to us, perhaps the clowns are aware of stressed/unhealthy anemones and don't find them attractive? Just tossing out the idea ...
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Slakker
Premium Member
Wow...something I hadn't ever thought of before, Mark. Health of the anemone could very plausibly be a factor. Even if proper care is provided for the anemone, improper shipping or capture can lead to its death within a year anyways. Maybe the clowns do know the difference.
I agree that CB clowns have no fear of predation in the aquarium (much like CB mice are much, MUCH calmer than wild counterparts) and so are in less of a rush to seek the safety of an anemone. It just makes sense. Nothing's trying to kill them...why not explore a little and see if there's something else they'd rather host? A nice Mag-Float, perhaps, or the overflow box...hehe
I agree that CB clowns have no fear of predation in the aquarium (much like CB mice are much, MUCH calmer than wild counterparts) and so are in less of a rush to seek the safety of an anemone. It just makes sense. Nothing's trying to kill them...why not explore a little and see if there's something else they'd rather host? A nice Mag-Float, perhaps, or the overflow box...hehe
elegance coral
They call me EC
I have been having trouble with my isp, but I think I'm back.
OK, there are lots of you that have had sucess with tr clowns. I have seen hosting of them for myself at the LFS. This does not mean that all tr clowns will go to anemones. What I said that got one of the other threads started was that sometimes tr clowns do not live in anemones. I never said, or ment to imply, that tr clowns will never live in anemones.
When man interfears with an animals natural life cycle we alter their behavior. It does not take many generations to do this. Most animals have a natural instinct to fear man, and yet there are people all over the world that take in orphaned, sick, or injered animals. In no time these animals start looking to people for comfort and food. The instinct to fear man has been trashed. This is just one of many examples of how man can change an animals behavior in a very brief period of time. It is not absurd to think that if we raised a clown in a clean empty tank for most of its youth that its behavior would be altered when compaired to a clown that spent most of its youth in an anemone in the wild. The first sight that a wild clown sees is its parents in an anemone. It will not survive unless it finds an anemone for itself. These are the clowns we catch for our aquariums. What makes no sense to me is the idea that we can raise two indviduals in totaly different enviroments and expect the same behavior out of them.
In the pole above 7 or so people voted yes (last time I checked). Assuming they are basing their openions on personal experiance you would have to believe that they are lying for some reason in order for your argument to be true. The other side of the argument only has to believe that you are basing your openion on personal experiance and disreguarding others.
There are tr clowns that dont care about anemones. Just because some people have had good luck with them does not mean that all tr clowns will behave the same way.
OK, there are lots of you that have had sucess with tr clowns. I have seen hosting of them for myself at the LFS. This does not mean that all tr clowns will go to anemones. What I said that got one of the other threads started was that sometimes tr clowns do not live in anemones. I never said, or ment to imply, that tr clowns will never live in anemones.
When man interfears with an animals natural life cycle we alter their behavior. It does not take many generations to do this. Most animals have a natural instinct to fear man, and yet there are people all over the world that take in orphaned, sick, or injered animals. In no time these animals start looking to people for comfort and food. The instinct to fear man has been trashed. This is just one of many examples of how man can change an animals behavior in a very brief period of time. It is not absurd to think that if we raised a clown in a clean empty tank for most of its youth that its behavior would be altered when compaired to a clown that spent most of its youth in an anemone in the wild. The first sight that a wild clown sees is its parents in an anemone. It will not survive unless it finds an anemone for itself. These are the clowns we catch for our aquariums. What makes no sense to me is the idea that we can raise two indviduals in totaly different enviroments and expect the same behavior out of them.
In the pole above 7 or so people voted yes (last time I checked). Assuming they are basing their openions on personal experiance you would have to believe that they are lying for some reason in order for your argument to be true. The other side of the argument only has to believe that you are basing your openion on personal experiance and disreguarding others.
There are tr clowns that dont care about anemones. Just because some people have had good luck with them does not mean that all tr clowns will behave the same way.
elegance coral
They call me EC
I don't understand. Middletonmark and Slakker just stated that tr clowns have no fear of preditors. If this is true, why is it such a leap to believe that their hosting ability could be flawed? Probably the most important instinct that an animal has is the instinct to fear preditors. If we have trashed this basic instinct by tank raising these fish it should come as no suprise that some of them would have problems with hosting.
phender
Active member
Unfortunately, many of the arguements here on both sides, are based on opinions or experiences that are not actually facts. They are simply one person's assumption as to why something happened.
My opinion is that there isn't a problem with TR fish accepting hosts. There is a problem with ocellaris and percula clowns accepting hosts. I have had more that three cases where WC ocellaris or percula have gone months (in one case over a year) before they accepted a non-gigantea or magnifica anemone.
How many of you have had TR clarki or tomato clowns refuse an anemone for weeks? I'm willing to bet not very many. My TR orange skunk clowns were in an anemone within minutes of being put into the tank.
TR clowns get a bad rap for not accepting anemones because most of them are either ocellaris or percula. If TR clowns were mostly clarki, we would be saying that TR clowns are MORE likely to accept anemones than those stupid WC ocellaris.
My opinion is that there isn't a problem with TR fish accepting hosts. There is a problem with ocellaris and percula clowns accepting hosts. I have had more that three cases where WC ocellaris or percula have gone months (in one case over a year) before they accepted a non-gigantea or magnifica anemone.
How many of you have had TR clarki or tomato clowns refuse an anemone for weeks? I'm willing to bet not very many. My TR orange skunk clowns were in an anemone within minutes of being put into the tank.
TR clowns get a bad rap for not accepting anemones because most of them are either ocellaris or percula. If TR clowns were mostly clarki, we would be saying that TR clowns are MORE likely to accept anemones than those stupid WC ocellaris.
