Is it true...

Is it true...

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 20.5%

  • No

    Votes: 97 79.5%
  • Total voters
    122
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9856095#post9856095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 55semireef
Speech is not an instinct, its a learned behavior. Hosting an anemone are instincts my friend. Don't confuse behavior and instincts.
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The point I was trying to make is that there is a portion of the brain responsible for speach and when it is not used for an extended period during a humans youth it shuts down. Is it not possible then that a clown raised in an artificial environment void of anemones could in time lose its drive to host? There must be a portion of its brain that tells it to find and anemone and how to live in it. Couldn't this portion of its brain begin to shut down if its not used? If we call it instinct or not.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9849732#post9849732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishnWishn
The flaw with this thought is that a clownfish fry never sees it's parents or an anemone as it's first sight. If it did it would probably be it's last. A newly hatched clownfish can only see no more than it's body length the first few days. It would be eaten by it's parents the first few hrs/weeks of it's life. The parents only take care of the eggs....larvae are fair game. If you have ever seen an anemone in the wild you would not see any clown larvae/juvi's in them until they have grown a few months. The resident pair or dominant clownfish would kill them or keep them away. Until then they are floating in the upper water column, close to the surface with the plankton to survive. Everything close to or on the reef would eat them.
I have TR juvi's that I have raised from a TR pair in bare clean growout tanks for 6 months before I put them into a tank with an anemone and they will always swim directly for the anemone. Granted they have used a sponge filter for a surrogate host the first 6 mths of their lives and the anemone and LR is the only thing in the new tanks but they have more than ample room to ignore the anemone but they don't. 3 days ago I put a large H. Crispa (Sebae) in a bare tank (DSB only) with 30-40, 8 mth juvi Snowflake Ocellaris/Percula hybrids, and they all went directly into the anemone. The H. Crispa is not a natural host for an Ocellaris or a Percula. This is all based on my personal experience, but the poll question was "are TR/CB less likely to host anemones", and to me seeing is believing. I voted NO.
By the way the question should read "use an anemone as a host" NOT " clownfish... host anemones". Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.
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What a fry sees or dosn't see is arguable. How could we know for sure? Their eyes are very large when compaired to the rest of their bodies. This implies to me that eye sight is very important to a young clown. Nature doesnt waist energy developing useless characteristics. With that said, it is dark when the fry hatch and they quickly move up into the water column. If they stuck around they would become food for their parents, this is true. I never implied that they did stick around. No matter what your view is on what a fry sees or dosn't see the outcome doesn't change the point I was trying to make. This was just a small statement in what I said and if removed would not change the meaning.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9859028#post9859028 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
The point I was trying to make is that there is a portion of the brain responsible for speach and when it is not used for an extended period during a humans youth it shuts down. Is it not possible then that a clown raised in an artificial environment void of anemones could in time lose its drive to host? There must be a portion of its brain that tells it to find and anemone and how to live in it. Couldn't this portion of its brain begin to shut down if its not used? If we call it instinct or not.
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What your saying is a logical hypothesis however clownfish do not ever lose the drive to host as you suggested. The instincts to host are embedded in their genetics because of thousands of years of evolution. Here is a reference just to prove my claim that I got from the link on the second page.

Posted by me no nemo:

The maroon clowns I recently received, that are 25 years old, haven't seen or been in an anemone for 23 years, yet within two hours in their new home tank they were happily snuggled into the one I provided and now rarely leave it. They feed it, clean it and care for it almost fanatically. Now, they were WC way back when, but have not seen or been around an anemone since. Yet, the speed in which they took to the anemone was incredible! I agree that it seems to be instinctual and in many cases, given time, tank raised and WC will make an anemone home.
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9859121#post9859121 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
This was just a small statement in what I said and if removed would not change the meaning.
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Actually that statement held up your entire argument. Eyesight is very important to larval clowns for a very simple reason: hunting. No eyesight, no food.

IMO your brain hypothesis could be plausible, but there is one major thing that kills it for me. As stated earlier, it's not an instinct. We learn to speak.

For a clown to seek the refuge of an anemone is a far more primal matter than our speech. It's the basic instinct to seek shelter, something they have in common with nearly all species, even humans. At the first sign of danger or discomfort, the fox may retreat to its den, the owl to the treetops, people to our homes, and the clownfish to its anemone.
Even if a CB clown doesn't have an anemone, has never seen an anemone, they will still find a favorite place in the tank that provides them with some security, be it a cave, a powerhead, an algae clip, your mag-float, or even a specific corner.

So, just because your CB clown may not be hosting your anemone, doesn't mean it's not hosting something.
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The maroon clowns I recently received, that are 25 years old, haven't seen or been in an anemone for 23 years, yet within two hours in their new home tank they were happily snuggled into the one I provided and now rarely leave it. They feed it, clean it and care for it almost fanatically. Now, they were WC way back when, but have not seen or been around an anemone since. Yet, the speed in which they took to the anemone was incredible! I agree that it seems to be instinctual and in many cases, given time, tank raised and WC will make an anemone home.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In what I said I made sure to include statements like "In a humans youth". People can go through all kinds of injuries and illnesses that cause them to not speak for years. Then learn to speak again. It seems that we have a window of time to learn to speak or we never will. Once learned, the portion of the brain responsible for this is there. It sounds like the clowns above spent 2 years of their youth in an anemone. They should still be able to host.
If there wern't people that have had problems with cb clowns hosting this thread would not be this long and people would not have voted yes. The fact that people have voted yes shows that they have had this problem.
To base an opinion solely on your own experiences and disregarding the experiences of others is a flawed point of view. To truely understand whats going on here one would need to take into consideration the experiances of everyone involved. If you do this with an open mind you will have no choice but to conclude that there is a problem. The extent of the problem is arguable, but the fact that one exists is not. This problem didn't exist untill they started selling cb to the public.
 
It might not be just sight or touch of the anemone after hatching. I know I'm not the only one who has observed the parent clownfish carefully preventing the anemone from touching the eggs for the first day after laying, then for the next 7 days they occasionally grab a tentacle in their mouth and spit it at the eggs.

I have watched and photographed this happening with both my pink skunks and ocellaris (sp?) in our magnifica. This odd behaviour must have some advantage to the fry's future survival. One possibility is that it makes their natural host easier for them to recognise when the time comes to come down from the plankton.

It would be a nice science project someday to test the urge to go to a host in TR fish that were laid near an anemone and TR fish that weren't.

After all that being said, I don't think that the difference in desire to go to an anemone is large enough between TR and WC fish for that to make a large impact on a purchase decision. As others have stated, the other considerations far outweigh any small difference that exists.
 
elegance coral, I have some simple questions for you. Sometimes I get confused on your position in the discussion. Do you believe that clownfish hosting an anemone is instinctual? Do you believe it can be flawed or disrupted? Do you know the difference between behavior and instincts?
 
Also, have you really been reading the posts in this thread?

In at least one post in this thread, it was stated that even WC clowns won't necessarily host in a species of anemone that doesn't naturally host them. This leads me to believe that the problem did exist before CB clowns were commercially available, but the argument was different.
 
WHY a clown will or will not host an anemone in your tank depends on many things, but not if it is CB.

this issue is cut and dry.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9863390#post9863390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
........If you do this with an open mind you will have no choice but to conclude that there is a problem. The extent of the problem is arguable, but the fact that one exists is not. This problem didn't exist untill they started selling cb to the public.
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You do know that not all Clownfish's hosting anemone will host all clown fish don't you?

WC A. ocellaris does not always go into a Haddoni carpet, BTA, Sebae or LTA to name a few host anemones. This is not a "problem". It is just a fact. Many people report that their S. haddoni eat their clown. It is a fact that many Ocellaris or Percula WC or TR lost their live to S. haddoni in a tank.
Show me one A. ocellaris, WC or TR, who is in a tank with an H. magnifica or S. gigantea that does not dive in to this anemone when you got your hand in the tank.

This discussion is meaningless unless we restrict the clownfish/anemone pairs we talk about to species that will host the clown involved in the wild. For other species of anemones and other corals, it is crab shoot when we try to force a unnatural relationship as I said before.

You statement above is is just plain wrong. Clowns are host specific. WC clown do have problem with being host in anemones that are not naturally associated with them. All you have to do is ask and there will plenty of people let you know that their WC or TR A. percula or A. ocellais do not go any where near their S. haddoni carpet anemone, or even eaten by this very sticky anemone. There is no report that Ocellaris, WC or TR, will not go into an H. magnifica or S. gigantea.

"The problem" ,as you put it, is in both WC and TR clowns. I don't see it as a problem but it is how you put it. It seem trivial and irrelevant to me.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9864588#post9864588 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 55semireef
elegance coral, I have some simple questions for you. Sometimes I get confused on your position in the discussion. Do you believe that clownfish hosting an anemone is instinctual? Do you believe it can be flawed or disrupted? Do you know the difference between behavior and instincts?
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Instinct is those behaviors that are preprogramed into an animals mind from birth. Sea turtles dashing to the ocean, mamals nursing, and yes I believe clowns searching for and living in anemones. Yes I believe it can be flawed or disrupted. This is where we disagree. It seems you believe that if we call a behavior instinct it can never be altered. The clown fishes instinct is to, at a given point in its development, find an anemone. We dont allow this to happen. Once a juvenile mamal is forsed by its mother to stop nursing, it does not spend the rest of its life trying to find someone to nurse from. (unless its a male human)
I'm not saying that all cb clowns have a problem hosting. I am just saying that the possibility is there. I believe the testimonials of those that have had this problem.
I think this may be my next research project. buying clownfish would be cheaper then buying Elegance corals anyway.
 
hey elegance my LFS had the most amazing elegance about 12 inches by 6 inches bright green and amazing no brown jelly no retracted tentacles, it was awsome.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9867187#post9867187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
hey elegance my LFS had the most amazing elegance about 12 inches by 6 inches bright green and amazing no brown jelly no retracted tentacles, it was awsome.
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You should have bought it when you had the chance. I Havent seen one like that in a very long time.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9868540#post9868540 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
You should have bought it when you had the chance. I Havent seen one like that in a very long time.
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they had about 5 nice ones they often get them in it really was too big for my tank but the color was some of the brightest green ive ever seen in any LPS and it was like tiger striped :)

they are a RC sponser Salty Critter Dan the owner is a really helpfull nice guy you could post a thread in their forum and ask about them. he did mention that for the last 5 years they have been hard to keep alive? also have you talked to Shutiny she has been trying to propogate a "bulletproof" elegance that has been in captivity for like 15 years.


i have your article on my desktop just havent read it completly yet. i did skim it though
 
By the way my third generation Tank Bred True percula started hosting my S. haddoni last night that was the only reason i was even intersested in this thread :)
IMG_8053.jpg
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9866683#post9866683 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
We dont allow this to happen.
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True, but you also have to realize that at no point in their lives do clownfish ever STOP hosting. Mammalian nursing instincts are completely irrelevant here, as mammals only nurse until they can manage to hunt or digest more suitable food sources.

The only "problem" here is that you WANT to believe that the ability or instinct for a CB clown to host is somehow altered.

As has been stated about a thousand times, the problem is not with the clown, it's with aquarists who become frustrated because they expect immediate hosting from the wrong species of anemone.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9868604#post9868604 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
they had about 5 nice ones they often get them in it really was too big for my tank but the color was some of the brightest green ive ever seen in any LPS and it was like tiger striped :)

they are a RC sponser Salty Critter Dan the owner is a really helpfull nice guy you could post a thread in their forum and ask about them. he did mention that for the last 5 years they have been hard to keep alive? also have you talked to Shutiny she has been trying to propogate a "bulletproof" elegance that has been in captivity for like 15 years.


i have your article on my desktop just havent read it completly yet. i did skim it though
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Sorry for hijacking this thread, but this horse is dead. Aint no since in beating it anymore.
How do I find Shutiny? Do you know what method she/he is using to propagate his/her Elegance?
 
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