Is it true...

Is it true...

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 20.5%

  • No

    Votes: 97 79.5%
  • Total voters
    122
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9866683#post9866683 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
Instinct is those behaviors that are preprogramed into an animals mind from birth. Sea turtles dashing to the ocean, mamals nursing, and yes I believe clowns searching for and living in anemones. Yes I believe it can be flawed or disrupted. This is where we disagree. It seems you believe that if we call a behavior instinct it can never be altered. The clown fishes instinct is to, at a given point in its development, find an anemone. We dont allow this to happen. Once a juvenile mamal is forsed by its mother to stop nursing, it does not spend the rest of its life trying to find someone to nurse from. (unless its a male human)
I'm not saying that all cb clowns have a problem hosting. I am just saying that the possibility is there. I believe the testimonials of those that have had this problem.
I think this may be my next research project. buying clownfish would be cheaper then buying Elegance corals anyway.
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Comparing a nursing mother mammal that only nurses her offspring temporarily to a clownfish that host an anemones as long as it can live is a horrible comparison of instincts. Let me be more bluntly with you. This is a fact: You cannot alter, change or mutate instincts AT ALL. Please, just stop disagreeing. You have yet to provide any references or any factual scientific articles to back up your theories throughout this whole thread. Posting false information is just going to get this whole discussion confusing as it already is. Just like GSMguy said, its cut and dry. Instincts are instincts. Your getting behavior and instincts confused. Behavior can be altered but instincts cannot unless evolution occurs.


I am done with this thread.

Good bye:bum:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9871484#post9871484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 55semireef
Comparing a nursing mother mammal that only nurses her offspring temporarily to a clownfish that host an anemones as long as it can live is a horrible comparison of instincts. Let me be more bluntly with you. This is a fact: You cannot alter, change or mutate instincts AT ALL. Please, just stop disagreeing. You have yet to provide any references or any factual scientific articles to back up your theories throughout this whole thread. Posting false information is just going to get this whole discussion confusing as it already is. Just like GSMguy said, its cut and dry. Instincts are instincts. Your getting behavior and instincts confused. Behavior can be altered but instincts cannot unless evolution occurs.


I am done with this thread.

Good bye:bum:
Click to expand...

Man.......That just aint right! I was done with this thread 4 posts ago, untill you had to go and get nasty. I never accused you of posting false information. You are entitled to your openion just as I am. You never came up with any Proof of your side of the argument either. I will never stop disagreeing with a philosophy that I beleive is flawed. I have been studying animals and their behavior all my life. It takes evolution to change a species not an individual in an artifical environment.
Now I'm done and moving on to more productive conversations.
 
If that is your perception of "natsy" than so be it. I honestly had no intentions of getting nasty at all. Its just frustrating that your mixing up behavior and instincts. Your calling this a philosophy but yet we are talking about pure science. And please understand this, when I say it takes evolution to alter instincts, I am also implying that evolution changes the population as a whole too. Individuals cannot evolve, but a population can. Behavior can be altered and clownfish may have to adapt their behavior to a new enviroment, but instincts cannot be changed through new enviroments. One reason why many animals on this planet go extinct is because their instincts do not cope with the habitat around them if their habitat has suddenly changed. If instincts can be altered through a couple of generations, life on Earth would be very much different. We as humans still provide a pretty accurate habitat for clownfish but since its not exactly like their true enviroment, they still have to adapt and so does their behavior. Their instincts to host their host specific anemones are never altered.

And I apologize if I came off nasty. I wanted to come off bluntly as I stated, not nasty.
 
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We are not going to agree on this one topic. This is the one fact that I have come away from this conversation with. I hope to see you on another thread, and who knows, we may even agree on something there.
 
Haha...I guess thats life then. Actually, we already have seen each other in another thread. You were helping me out too. ;)

Look forward to seeing you in another thread.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9871726#post9871726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elegance coral
It takes evolution to change a species not an individual in an artifical environment.
Click to expand...

That's...well...exactly our point.
 
I hate it when I come in on the butt end of what could have been an interesting thread. I believe it started as a survey of people who not only believed, but had experiences in the possible differences between CR and WC clownfish. I guess we got our answer, since the poll had the "No's" winning.
There certainly are a lot of variables involved, most of which are matching up the clownfish to it's natural host. Yep, some clowns will host almost anything, while some are much more particular. That is true of many, many species characteristics, as some species occupy few niches, and some occupy many.
I am somewhat perplexed as to the motives of people who claim that there is no such thing as instinct, and confusion about the differences between learning and instinct.
For sure, some changes are undergone when captive breeding clowns. The numerous instances of mis-barring come to mind.
On the other hand, I am beginning to think there is some kind of conspiracy going on to discredit the efforts of captive breeders of not only fish, but corals too (more than one reference to the higher likelyhood of disease being gotten from captive raised corals) I mean, gee, where do all the diseases come from originally anyway. I generally buy what is available, which is mostly wild caught, and I've seen all kinds of nasties taken off my stock in quarantine.
Captive breeding is here to stay, hopefully, and I for one will purchase them whenever I can.
 
Well said.

I am planning on stocking my tanks with CB-only fish. It sure limits what I can do, but luckily I don't have much room in my current 12g for anything that can't be CB at this point.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9883143#post9883143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by yardboy
I hate it when I come in on the butt end of what could have been an interesting thread. I believe it started as a survey of people who not only believed, but had experiences in the possible differences between CR and WC clownfish. I guess we got our answer, since the poll had the "No's" winning.
There certainly are a lot of variables involved, most of which are matching up the clownfish to it's natural host. Yep, some clowns will host almost anything, while some are much more particular. That is true of many, many species characteristics, as some species occupy few niches, and some occupy many.
I am somewhat perplexed as to the motives of people who claim that there is no such thing as instinct, and confusion about the differences between learning and instinct.
For sure, some changes are undergone when captive breeding clowns. The numerous instances of mis-barring come to mind.
On the other hand, I am beginning to think there is some kind of conspiracy going on to discredit the efforts of captive breeders of not only fish, but corals too (more than one reference to the higher likelyhood of disease being gotten from captive raised corals) I mean, gee, where do all the diseases come from originally anyway. I generally buy what is available, which is mostly wild caught, and I've seen all kinds of nasties taken off my stock in quarantine.
Captive breeding is here to stay, hopefully, and I for one will purchase them whenever I can.
Click to expand...

Again, well said. I am also in shock as to how some individuals believe that instincts can be changed or altered. I just find it amazing they make this great claim but yet to back it up with examples, references or links to articles. I still believe that there are some that participated in this thread that don't know the difference between behavior and instints no matter how many years they have been in the hobby or studied animals.
 
I don't think we have altered their instinct at all.
elegance coral,
Since you like dogs so much (as do I) lets talk about them.
Take one of your young dogs and throw him into the swimming pool and I'll bet you he'll swim like hes been doing it his whole life. Did you train him to do that? Instinct.
Why does a house dog that has no competition, eat every single morsel of food you give him? (unless of course you're free feeding)
It's because he's hard wired to eat it all before another animal comes and takes it. That's why the animal nutrionist came up with the idea of free feeding in the 1st place;because it's not healthy for a dog to gorge himself from *instinctively* eating everything in the bowl whether he needs it or not.

Why does a dog in a fenced in back yard, with no competition,bury a bone he wants to save for later instead of just leaving it lying around? I've never given my dog a bone and decided later that I wanted it back.
He does it to keep other animals from finding it (even though he's fenced in and there are no other animals.) Instinct.

Why does a dog turn around in a circle right before he beds down?
Because many moons ago their ancestors did it to knock the high grass down (look it up.)
My dog does it on the porch. Why? Instinct.

You say we have zoo animals that cannot be rereleased into the wild. That's true but only because they no longer fear humans.
There's not an animal at the zoo that wouldn't do just fine when put back into his natural habitat other than the fact that theres the danger of it wondering into a neighborhood,village, or whatever and either harming humans or getting harmed by one.

If you think that zoo raised lion wont instinctively go after that gazelle or that the zoo raised gazelle wont instinctively run from it,you're mistaken.
Why do you think they keep the predators and prey separated???
A lot of these animal are born and raised in captivity, some for several generations, yet I can't recall ever seeing a Tiger and deer display can you? The tiger is fat and healthy, and has never had to hunt in his life, so why kill the deer? Instinct.

And before someone goes posting a pic of a tiger and deer "playing" together; I'm not talking about someone raising the two together and physically intervening to ensure everyone gets alone.That's a case of the animal learning that the "master" does not tolerate this behavior and he learns to ADAPT to the master's wishes.
Leave them together long enough without the intervention,let the predator get hungry enough and say goodbye to the "friendship."

Everything you spoke about is adaptation, either physically or mentally.
They can do it in the wild if needed,and they do it in captivity.
We,as humans, shouldn't flatter ourselves and presume that we are so smart that we are able to,in such a short time, undo 1000s of years of hard wired instinct.
 
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Abynum, I 99% agree with you, but there are instincts and there are learned responses. A tiger may instinctively go after a deer, but to develop real hunting skill requires a mother to teach him, another reason you cannot let him out of the zoo. While a dog certainly has lots of instincts, he is a mammal, and as such has many things taught to him by his parents. One reaosn why we can train them is because they see us as parental figures, and later as the alpha dog.
Fishes, and most creatures of the sea, are not mammals, and have many more instincts and far fewer learned behaviors. Any creature whose sole parental obligation is the mixing of eggs and sperm in the water column has mostly instinctual behavior. Anything else they learn on their own.
As a personal limted experience, the clowns I've raised, both captive and tank raised, went almost directly to an anemone when introduced to the tank, but I was careful to match the pairs according to prevailing knowledge about which hostings would work and which would not.
 
Very well said Abynum1 and same with you yardboy. I just wish elegence coral would come back to this thread and respond. I still don't understand how instincts can be altered.
 
Since I am one of the few who posted "Yes" (it IS true that captive raised clowns are less likely to host) I thought I'd share my rationale.

To start with, there has never been a recorded instance of a clownfish being caught in the wild without an anemone host. That's right - not a single instance. Given that there are tons of tank-raised clownfish out there that refuse to host in an anemone, I would say the answer to this poll is obvious.

However there are almost limitless variables to take into consideration. In the wild, clownfish settle into an anemone almost immediately after metamorphosis. It is a race against time for them - anemone or death. In a captive environment, this is not the case. Who is to say, for example, that of ALL clownfish larvae, 50% are born without a strong hosting instinct and in the wild those without the instinct die, while in captivity they are raised to adulthood?

More importantly, when do clowns develop the instinct to host? If the instinct is strongest immediately after metamorphosis, clowns in the wild have a head-start on their captive brethren, most of whom never see an anemone until they are 1/2" or greater. Most breeders that I am aware of never even try to pair small clown fry up with anemones (for a number of reasons including difficulty of anemone care and excess fry mortality).

Many people have noted unnatural behavior in young captive-raised clowns, including hanging out around heaters, hanging out in the upper corners of tanks by plumbing fixtures, etc. These are behaviors created by the nature of their artificial rearing that have nothing to do with a genetic pre-disposition for or against hosting behavior. Put differently, if you take a sea turtle and raise it in captivity until it is several months old, and THEN release it in the wild, it cannot find its way back to its “birth” beach later in life â€"œ it has simply lost the ability (scientists don’t know why). Hence, all captive-raised sea turtle programs require releasing the tiny newly hatched turtles on the beach despite very high mortality rates.

So I think people may be answering two different questions when they read this poll. Question 1: Do tank-raised clownfish have a greater or lesser potential to host in anemones early in life (i.e. at metamorphosis)?
Question 2: Do tank-raised clownfish have a greater or lesser potential to host in anemones by the time they arrive at a buyers tank? (Typically 6months â€"œ 1 year of age)
I would answer these two questions very differently.

Also, a bunch of ad hoc commentary from people who have “one captive-raised clownfish hosting in an anemone” doesn’t answer the question. 100% of wild clowns are found hosting in anemones. Less than 100% of captive-raised will host in anemones. The causes will remain unknown until someone starts running actual scientific studies with statistical sampling and proper controls.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9889903#post9889903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut
However there are almost limitless variables to take into consideration. In the wild, clownfish settle into an anemone almost immediately after metamorphosis. It is a race against time for them - anemone or death. In a captive environment, this is not the case. Who is to say, for example, that of ALL clownfish larvae, 50% are born without a strong hosting instinct and in the wild those without the instinct die, while in captivity they are raised to adulthood?
Click to expand...

You say "In a captive environment, this is not the case" but how often do aquarists mix predator fish with their clownfish? Obviously there is a reason why some clownfish(usually A. Percula and Ocellaris) do not take to their anemone. Simple, there is no need for it. Anemones provide a safe niche where the clownfish can live. Anemones are the clownfish's territory but when there is a lack of predator or dominant species in the tank, why would the clownfish need an anemone per say? Why not just take the whole tank instead and use that as a hosting site? Not to mention, in your statement above, your being very vague when you state "In a captive environment, this is not the case." The reason why not all tank bred clownfish host is because oftenly, the person provided the wrong anemone in the first place. Clownfish are host specific as you know and often times clownfish do not take to anemones that they don't naturally host. I most often see this especially with Percula and Ocellaris. Oh, and still to this day, I never seen a clownfish not host an anemone that they normally host in the wild. Have you ever seen A. Percula in a tank with a Gigantea with the Percula not hosting? I don't think so.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9889903#post9889903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut
More importantly, when do clowns develop the instinct to host? If the instinct is strongest immediately after metamorphosis, clowns in the wild have a head-start on their captive brethren, most of whom never see an anemone until they are 1/2" or greater. Most breeders that I am aware of never even try to pair small clown fry up with anemones (for a number of reasons including difficulty of anemone care and excess fry mortality).
Click to expand...

It is not when the clowns develop the instinct, it is when is the instinct triggered. Instincts do not develop, they are born with them just like with all animals on this planet. Something in the clownfish's genetics trigger the instinct to host and I am guessing that after the clowns go through metamorphosis the instinct is triggered.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9889903#post9889903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut
Many people have noted unnatural behavior in young captive-raised clowns, including hanging out around heaters, hanging out in the upper corners of tanks by plumbing fixtures, etc. These are behaviors created by the nature of their artificial rearing that have nothing to do with a genetic pre-disposition for or against hosting behavior. Put differently, if you take a sea turtle and raise it in captivity until it is several months old, and THEN release it in the wild, it cannot find its way back to its “birth” beach later in life â€"œ it has simply lost the ability (scientists don’t know why). Hence, all captive-raised sea turtle programs require releasing the tiny newly hatched turtles on the beach despite very high mortality rates.
Click to expand...

I think the big mis-conception going on in this thread is the confusion between behavior and instincts and between "alter" and "disrupt." Sure humans can disrupt the instinct to host by doing many things such as providing the wrong host anemone or not introducing them to an anemone until they are adults. But who can make such a claim that an instinct can be altered? You cannot alter genetics unless a mutation occurs which is rare in some species so to speak. Yes evolution can happen with a species of clownfish over thousands of years but for someone to say their instincts can be altered is wrong. In other words, humans can confuse and disrupt the relationship between anemones and clownfsih but not alter their instincts. Take tank bred clownfish and put them in the wild in their own natural habitat and I promise you that their insticts will kick in no matter what of their past in the home aquaria. They will either die because of either predation or starvation or they will find their host specific anemone.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9889903#post9889903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut Also, a bunch of ad hoc commentary from people who have “one captive-raised clownfish hosting in an anemone” doesn’t answer the question. 100% of wild clowns are found hosting in anemones. Less than 100% of captive-raised will host in anemones. The causes will remain unknown until someone starts running actual scientific studies with statistical sampling and proper controls. [/B]
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I agree with this completely.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9890081#post9890081 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 55semireef
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Without getting into semantics, I think you and I may be in agreement. I believe that all tank-raised clowns have the same POTENTIAL AT HATCH for hosting in anemones as wild clowns. However, in practice, fewer tank-raised clowns at ADULTHOOD are hosting in anemones in people's tanks than wild clowns.

You go on to discuss possible causes (presence of predator fish, etc). I will be the first to admit I have no idea what the causes may be. Perhaps it is, as you suggest, the need to "trigger" an instinct - and that wild caught fish come "pre-triggered" while tank-raised fish require that you recreate the proper triggers - something that many hobbyists may not be able to do.

Too often in this hobby it comes down to practice versus potential. So when people ask for advice I prefer to discuss the hobby "in practice" versus "in potential". If people need a healthy S. gigantea in order to trigger a hosting instinct in tank-raised A. perculas, then I would say the odds are against it happening. It's not impossible - just not likely.
 
Quote:
To start with, there has never been a recorded instance of a clownfish being caught in the wild without an anemone host. That's right - not a single instance. Given that there are tons of tank-raised clownfish out there that refuse to host in an anemone, I would say the answer to this poll is obvious."
I'll assume you have evidence of this, which is what this poll is all about anyway. On the surface, I'd agree with the first part as it'd be much easier to collect clowns out of anemones than free swimming after metamorphosis. As for the second, I hope you know this and aren't just throwing it out.
Who is to say, for example, that of ALL clownfish larvae, 50% are born without a strong hosting instinct and in the wild those without the instinct die, while in captivity they are raised to adulthood?
If that assumption were true, then every clownfish found in an anemone would have a strong hosting instinct, right? Weak hosting behavior would be bred outof the population after a very few generations since the weak hosting ones wouldn't reproduce, as they'd be eaten. Since all wild caught clowns (including the ones used for captive breeding purposes, originally) have the strong hosting instinct, they'd pass it on to their offspring.
I certainly agree with you that if you haven't experienced it, there's not any point in arguing pro or con, experience is the key.
It's just that when posters go beyond the experience aspect and debate why it would be one way or another, then anyone has the right to debate.
After all, at one time, everyone thought the world was flat, determined through opinion and debate, not from experience.
 
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