Is it true...

[Abynum1]

I wonder what would happen if you took the TR clown that refuses to host, and put him in a tank with predator fish and an anemone (under watchful eye of course,dont want the clown to get eaten.)
When I first started out I had a snowflake eel and a tomato clown in the same tank.
The lfs sold the clown to me along with a Florida condy.
I didn't know any better at the time,and the teenager at the lfs said "aw,it'll be alright,nothing will mess with him as long as he has an anemone."
I,being in college,broke, and ignorant,bought the cheapest nem they had.
The clown wasn't hosting it at the lfs as they were in separate tanks but he went right to it once I put them in the display.
Unfortunately I don't know if he would have refused to host without the presence of the eel or not because I never had them in the tank without him.
The eel never bothered the clown,but the clown never came out of the condy unless he absolutely had to.
Albeit I kept the eel fat and happy.
Again this doesn't absolutely prove or disprove anything as we'll never know if the clown was a refuser or not,but I'm pretty sure it would have refused the condy if it had a choice between it and another nem.

 

[GSMguy]

once again

YOU CAN TAKE ANY TR CLOWN AND PUT IT IN A TANK WITH THE RIGHT CONDITIONS AND ITS NATURALL HOST ANEMONE AND IT WILL HOST.........AHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHHA

 

[Abynum1]

Quote:
To start with, there has never been a recorded instance of a clownfish being caught in the wild without an anemone host. That's right - not a single instance.

Wrong! Nemo was caught in the wild nowhere near his host nem.

 

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9890547#post9890547 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Abynum1
Quote:
To start with, there has never been a recorded instance of a clownfish being caught in the wild without an anemone host. That's right - not a single instance.

Wrong! Nemo was caught in the wild nowhere near his host nem.

nemo was in a sexual relationship with his dad that can screw up a lil clowns head.

 

[55semireef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9890507#post9890507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Abynum1
I wonder what would happen if you took the TR clown that refuses to host, and put him in a tank with predator fish and an anemone (under watchful eye of course,dont want the clown to get eaten.)
When I first started out I had a snowflake eel and a tomato clown in the same tank.
The lfs sold the clown to me along with a Florida condy.
I didn't know any better at the time,and the teenager at the lfs said "aw,it'll be alright,nothing will mess with him as long as he has an anemone."
I,being in college,broke, and ignorant,bought the cheapest nem they had.
The clown wasn't hosting it at the lfs as they were in separate tanks but he went right to it once I put them in the display.
Unfortunately I don't know if he would have refused to host without the presence of the eel or not because I never had them in the tank without him.
The eel never bothered the clown,but the clown never came out of the condy unless he absolutely had to.
Albeit I kept the eel fat and happy.
Again this doesn't absolutely prove or disprove anything as we'll never know if the clown was a refuser or not,but I'm pretty sure it would have refused the condy if it had a choice between it and another nem.

I bet the Tomato clown would never have hosted if the eel wasn't there. Odds are most clowns do not host Condy anemones. Its just to ironic that a tomato would take to a condy at that type of rate when there happens to be a potential predator in the tank. Get my drift?

BonsaiNut, I think the primary reason why lots of captive clownfish do not host is because they are provided the wrong anemone such as a pair of percula in a tank with a S. Haddoni. Some clownfish do host (GSMguys percs do) while others do not. However, I still believe that if Percs were in a tank that had a Gigantea in it, they would take to it with no hesitation.

 

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9889903#post9889903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut
Given that there are tons of tank-raised clownfish out there that refuse to host in an anemone, I would say the answer to this poll is obvious.

You'd think...but what about the WC clowns that refuse to host an unnatural anemone? IMO, there's no difference between that and a CB clown that won't host. It's the same issue, different complaints.

Maybe the problem is that clowns in captivity are less likely to host, period.

 

[GSMguy]

Bonsai NUT the answer is obvious you cant breed out the hosting behaivior i have never heard of a TR clown that could not host.

 

[Bebo77]

lol...

 

[BonsaiNut]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9892967#post9892967 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
Bonsai NUT the answer is obvious you cant breed out the hosting behaivior i have never heard of a TR clown that could not host.

This thread reminds me of all the reasons why I don't visit this forum much any longer.

For those of you who persist in arguing based on opinion instead of experience, I would highly recommend you strap on some tanks and go visit some reefs in the South Pacific and compare what you see there to what you see at a large-scale commercial clown breeder (assuming of course you HAVE been to both places, right?) Then, I would welcome you to develop some hypotheses to explain the difference, and run some tests and share the results.

Just saying that all geese have the INSTINCT to fly south in the Winter, doesn't prove that all captive-raised geese WILL fly south in the Winter. For the record, they won't - at least not all of them and not without contact with wild geese or other external influences. I again point you at the REAL experience of people working a sea turtle hatcheries (you have been to a turtle hatchery haven't you?) where sea turtles have the INSTINCT to return to the same beach to lay their eggs, but lose the ability to do so if released on the beach too late after hatching.

INSTINCT can and is overruled by ENVIRONMENT and INTELLIGENCE. There is no less natural environment for most juvenile clowns than most breeder's setups. To suggest that a clown raised in a sterile breeder environment will behave exactly the same way as a clown raised in the wild is silly. And for the record - there are plenty of ways that wild caught clowns differ from tank-raised other than just anemone host behavior, and not all of them are favorable. I'm not arguing wild caught is better than tank-raised. I'm just stating the obvious that they are different.

 

[MiddletonMark]

Bonsai Nut - how then do you explain the captive-bred Whooping Cranes?

They fly them south in fall behind an ultralight on their very first southward migration ... and the cranes return themselves to their home, at their own timing, 100% on their own in springtime. No problem finding their home-spot ... so while turtles might have problems, other animals don't.

For every example you throw out of an animal that has migrational issues - there's plenty of them that have major innate tendencies/abilities pre-programmed that captive raising doesn't affect.

Please demonstrate the difference and why clowns finding anemone hosts is obviously something that quickly disappears vs. a long-held trait.

 

[BonsaiNut]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9893420#post9893420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
Please demonstrate the difference and why clowns finding anemone hosts is obviously something that quickly disappears vs. a long-held trait.

Please re-read my posts. I have never said that clowns finding anemones is something that "quickly disappears". I am refering to the original poll, as well as the 100's of posts that have appeared on this forum over the years with people having problems getting tank-raised clowns to host in anemones.

Remember the original question: " Are tank raised clowns less likely to host anemones?". It is kind of obvious given all the people who have tank-raised clowns in tanks with anemones that don't host in anything, or else host in a flowerpot or leather coral. They post on this forum all the time.

However over time the thread has morphed and I think people are trying to argue whether it is possible to breed out the hosting instinct (in a generation or two from wild caught adults). This I do not think is possible (or at least is highly improbable). However having an instinct for something, versus displaying the actual behavior in a captive environment, are two different things. I think tank-raised clowns all have the instinct, but their rearing environment and their intelligent reaction to that environment, make it "less likely for them to host anemones".

 

[GSMguy]

im sick of being told i dont know what im talking about.

where is this magic freaking TR clownfish that is refusing to host????

who has a TR clown that they cant get to host in their natural host anemone???????????????

 

[traveller7]

Folks,

This is a discussion, not sure where all the combative emotions are coming from but some folks need to take a break.

Did I miss a related field study or research paper getting posted? There are some out there.

I did notice folks glossing over the posts of a few multi species clown breeders with first hand experiences. Ironically these folks are most likely to see the trends first hand with a statistical sample size.

Has this topic degenerated into a "I am going to scream louder until everyone agrees with me!" discussion? If so, we can close it and move on.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9893269#post9893269 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut
This thread reminds me of all the reasons why I don't visit this forum much any longer.

And that my friend is a great loss for RC and specifically this forum.

btw: where is the link to the magnifica field study?

 

[BonsaiNut]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9893522#post9893522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by traveller7

btw: where is the link to the magnifica field study?

Are you talking about the one regarding survivability of H. magnifica with and without hosted clownfish? I'll have to dig that one up unless you're refering to a different one.

[EDIT] I'll post it under a new thread so I don't hijack this one....

 

[traveller7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9893762#post9893762 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut
Are you talking about the one regarding survivability of H. magnifica with and without hosted clownfish?

As a start, yes. Although it really only implies the reverse, anemone survival w/o clowns. It is related for discussion purposes.

There was one on clown mortality, but I have not been able to find it again

 

[BonsaiNut]

Related to this discussion is the question of how wild caught clowns know how to host in non-natural host anemones. I've attached a photo of an adult pair of A. latezonatus being hosted by a S. gigantea. S. gigantea occurs outside of their native range. Yet these two fish dove into the anemone almost instantly. Would tank-raised clowns be "just as likely" to dive into a non-native host?

 

[illcssd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9893522#post9893522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by traveller7
Folks,

I did notice folks glossing over the posts of a few multi species clown breeders with first hand experiences. Ironically these folks are most likely to see the trends first hand with a statistical sample size.

I agree 100% with you Scott and i don't think the people arguing here or "discussing" are realizing the other people who have and do breed clown fish, multi species at that. All of these new people show up, read awhile and think they know everything, and then come and argue with people who i and many people respect on this forum making them not want to post anymore. This attitude we have seen in this thread is ridiculous and is the basis behind losing alot of key knowledgeable posters and members of this specific forum. Over the last 6 months i have seen more and more of the people i respect and that are extremely experienced in clown fish and anemone's stop posting because of the childish antics people play and show over the board pretending like they know everything and when people disagree have to have a YELLING contest over the Internet.

Lets show some respect guys. Thats all i have to say.

 

[BonsaiNut]

I am trying to find the material for this study because I think it starts to get closer to what we are discussing here:

Author Arvedlund, M. and L.E. Nielsen
________________________________________
Year 1996
________________________________________
Title Do the Anemonefish Amphiprion ocellaris (Pisces: Pomacentridae) Imprint Themselves to Their Host Sea Anemone Heteractis magnifica (Anthozoa: Actinidae)?
________________________________________
Source Ethology 102, 197-211.
________________________________________
Keywords olfactory stimuli
________________________________________
Caption
________________________________________
Abstract Juvenile anemonefishes detect their host sea anemone by olfactory stimuli; in order to investigate whether this behaviour is innate or acquired, the anemonefish species Amphiprion ocellaris was bred in two different ways: 1. With no,host sea anemone present at all (-A); and 2. With the specific host sea anemone Heteractis magnifica present in the hatching aquarium, so that these eggs were laid and hatched close to the sea anemone, as in nature (+ A). The two different types of juvenile A. ocellaris were presented to the odours of the host sea anemone H. magnifica in two sets of short-term experiments with the host (a) visually hidden in a net cage, and (b) visible but physically separated from the anemonefishes. In both cases, a water flow was established between fishes and host. The +A-fishes found tlieir host by olfactory and not by visual stimuli. In both series, the -A-fishes showed a significantly lower affinity behaviour towards the odour compounds from the host sea anemone than the +A-fishes did. A third type of experiment was a direct confrontation between fishes and host; here, the - Afishes were indifferent towards the host sea anemone for almost 48 h, while the + A -fishes acclimated to the host sea anemone within the first 5 min of the direct confrontation. The results of this study suggest that Amphiprion ocellaris imprints itself olfactorily to its speciesspecific host sea anemone Heteractis magnifica, and, furthermore, may be genetically disposed towards olfactory recognition of the host sea anemone.

 

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9893969#post9893969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut
Would tank-raised clowns be "just as likely" to dive into a non-native host?

Yes, just as I'm sure that another pair of WC wouldn't necessarily take to a non-native host as quickly as your one particular pair of A. Latezonatus. In fact, I'm sure I've seen posts where Captive Bred A. Ocellaris or A. Percula dive right into a BTA upon being introduced into a new tank.

The study you posted, IMO, simply suggests that it may take fish bred in a (-A) type environment longer to find a natural host...not that they won't find it, are less likely to find it, or can't host in it. It misses the meat and potatoes of this entire discussion.

But, when it all comes down to it, you and everyone else who voted "yes" are not likely to be swayed, just as those who voted "no" will not likely be convinced that somehow a clownfish's ability to host is gimped in captive breeding.

 

[55semireef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9893437#post9893437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BonsaiNut
However over time the thread has morphed and I think people are trying to argue whether it is possible to breed out the hosting instinct (in a generation or two from wild caught adults). This I do not think is possible (or at least is highly improbable). However having an instinct for something, versus displaying the actual behavior in a captive environment, are two different things. I think tank-raised clowns all have the instinct, but their rearing environment and their intelligent reaction to that environment, make it "less likely for them to host anemones".

I agree with this completely. For some reason, the poll allowed me to vote again and this time I voted yes. The question is really to specific to choose an answer without explaining your side.

If the question asked "Do clownfish loose their instincts in captivity," I would have obviously voted "no" but now that the discussion has become more intelligent based(besides some of the banter), I have changed my views and voted "yes." I still believe that TB clownfish have the ability to host just as much as WC clownfish. Both have the strong will to host anemones however, humans put them in an enviroment that make them less likely to host.

BonsaiNut, isn't that your pair of Latz and purple Gigantea? That picture is stunning. Do you still have that Gigantea?