It's time, let's see those SPS tanks using LEDs 1 year or longer

[JaneG]

Jane,before you go, am curious how many years in the hobby, different lighting technologies, tank sizes etc?

I ask this because people mostly speak from their experience and not all of us have the same experience. A simple analogy, say someone always drove a large sedan and has virtually no experience with any other types of cars, so to that person their sedan gives the performance they are used to and they think it is good. Until you drive a Corvette or a Viper you have no idea how good performance can be, not because you are stupid but because your experience isn't as varied as it could be.

It's the same with lighting, I am seriously considering my first LED fixture after having gone from almost every lighting in use in the hobby. I am doing this because I do believe that LEDs are the future but I honestly don't expect them to be better or worse than what I currently have but I am hopeful. When I read what you are writing it strikes me as coming from someone who hasn't had a lot of experience with different lighting, and that is ok, we all started somewhere, but I am curious.

Admittedly, I have only been in the hobby for about 2.5 years (estimating here - I don't know exactly) but have had a lot more experience than many during those 2.5 years. I have had a pico (4g), a nano (18g), a medium sized tank (50g, still running) and a large tank (120g) that has just finished cycling. Additionally, I've been an intern at my LFS for ~1.5 years and am now a full time employee so I've had a lot of experience with different lighting systems (our SPS display tank runs MH before you think I'm totally LED biased). I also got a different perspective on lighting when I met with some of my reefing friends in Japan, many of whom were running LEDs over SPS dominate tanks.

If you notice throughout this thread, I've never said LEDs are better than MH or T5 for coloration - just that they can certainly be comparable. They aren't a "miracle" lighting system that will make any tank look great - that takes a lot of diligence and patience. There are some nice benefits that come with them though, making them my lighting of choice now. Don't just take my word for anything I've said - research and you'll find what's best for you. This isn't so cut and dry though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big E
.....the colors don't look right including your tank

The funny part is the only tank in this thread that looks good is Tony's t5 tank with his progression pics. I've seen many pictures & tanks that boast colors like his & my own t5's mimic those colors.

Before that I ran MH for 8 years & seen in person & in pics how great corals can look. So far LEDs aren't gettin it done.

JaneG response---
I'll try to keep this response brief because it does sound like an echo of what others have said above. The main thing I found interesting about this was that your tank doesn't have such fabulous colors yourself, yet you start by saying the "colors don't look right [in my tank]." If this had been an LED tank, don't you think that your colors look "typical LEDs"? That just proves, to me, that coloration is not all about lighting in the slightest.

------------
Jane, I'm glad you asked........I just happened to post these frag pics I took under my 4 bulb T5's run on a Ice cap ballast just today. I'm going to add more pics & i plan to update this thread every few months so if you want, you can refer to it anytime.

I've got plenty more pics also, if you want to see them we can do it on pm's, as I don't want to clutter this thread with an unnecessary debate

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142

My comment about your tank was a bit harsh, but I'll end with this..........

I have 4 criteria for LEDs when it comes to what I want out of lighting---

1. Acro colors that pop..........they don't need to look exactly like a picture or the same in another person's tank.....just look good.

2. Overall ambient light that is bright & white with a slight bluish tint. I don't want the tank to have pinkish or a heavy blue look to it.

3. Natural looking shimmer lines that don't look like a flickering light or a disco ball.

4. No spot light effect or dark areas & shadows that aren't naturally caused by the coral growth or aquascape.

When I see this.......I'll be ready to buy LEDs. Like I said earlier........the newest versions hitting the market in the next few months look promising. I'm happy to wait till they prove themselves out.

Nice colors

 

[M007]

Nice work junio! :dance:

 

[sirreal63]

I agree that is isn't a cut and dried thing and I had varied success over the years with Normal T12 bulbs, PCs, T5's and MH, nothing compared to the MH but the T5 was close. We know that LEDs can grow colorful corals but it is the colors themselves that do not seem right. This is part of the reason I am going to try them, I have been playing with SPS for 8 years now and have understand how coloration can be influenced by many factors, but for the most part the coloration is consistent, except with LEDs, which seem to change the colors. I will gain nothing by switching to LEDs, in fact I am losing by doing so but I have faith that the tech is getting close. My point is you cannot dismiss the numerous serious Sps addicts here that have tried LEDs and found them less than what they had before. MedRed's experience is a perfect example, he was gung ho LED for quite a while, and the pics of his tank clearly show what a drastic change his tank underwent by putting a better light source over his tank. It was growing before, it was colorful before but now it is doing what he expected it to do with the LEDs, but never did. He isn't alone in noticing this difference. Don't dismiss that experience of others. He had the sedan now he has a better performing car.

I almost went plasma with my current tank, but decided to use what has worked better than anything else I have ever tried before. If the LEDs don't do what I am hoping they will, I will put my halides back over the tank. I know what good growth and coloration is, I see it in my own tank and have in the last 5 reboots of my reef, (moving is hard on a reefer) and when I see these led tanks and people exclaiming on how great their growth is I have to chuckle and remember to be nice, because it isn't impressive at all.

Don't discount other people's experience.

 

[JaneG]

I agree that is isn't a cut and dried thing and I had varied success over the years with Normal T12 bulbs, PCs, T5's and MH, nothing compared to the MH but the T5 was close. We know that LEDs can grow colorful corals but it is the colors themselves that do not seem right. This is part of the reason I am going to try them, I have been playing with SPS for 8 years now and have understand how coloration can be influenced by many factors, but for the most part the coloration is consistent, except with LEDs, which seem to change the colors. I will gain nothing by switching to LEDs, in fact I am losing by doing so but I have faith that the tech is getting close. My point is you cannot dismiss the numerous serious Sps addicts here that have tried LEDs and found them less than what they had before. MedRed's experience is a perfect example, he was gung ho LED for quite a while, and the pics of his tank clearly show what a drastic change his tank underwent by putting a better light source over his tank. It was growing before, it was colorful before but now it is doing what he expected it to do with the LEDs, but never did. He isn't alone in noticing this difference. Don't dismiss that experience of others. He had the sedan now he has a better performing car.

I almost went plasma with my current tank, but decided to use what has worked better than anything else I have ever tried before. If the LEDs don't do what I am hoping they will, I will put my halides back over the tank. I know what good growth and coloration is, I see it in my own tank and have in the last 5 reboots of my reef, (moving is hard on a reefer) and when I see these led tanks and people exclaiming on how great their growth is I have to chuckle and remember to be nice, because it isn't impressive at all.

Don't discount other people's experience.

Oh, but I didn't intend to. I understand LEDs don't work for some people and that's ok - but success shouldn't be dismissed. Every tank is different. Over and out!

Jane

 

[Newbie_fish]

Nice tank Junio. What is the dims of your tank ? Do you think I can go with 4 units on my 60" tank ?
TIA

Hello guys.
I've been runing my tank under maxspect mazarra leds. It's not a sps only. In fact it's a mix tank, but the three main islands have plenty of sps.
I may not be the greatest expert in reef ilumination, but I am quite happy about my colors.
In this movie and pictures you can see the colors of some of my corals. In the flickr album there are some other pictures.
I must apologize for my writing mistakes.
Best regards and greetings from Brazil!
Junio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJVc2dcYf8&feature=player_embedded

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67061366@N08/sets/72157630336512514/

 

[junio]

Nice work junio! :dance:

Thanks!

 

[junio]

Nice tank Junio. What is the dims of your tank ? Do you think I can go with 4 units on my 60" tank ?
TIA

My tank is 63". You can go with 4 units with 100 degree lenses.

 

[Vannpytt]

It's kinda funny, in all honesty, it's far between great tanks with T5s (or MH), and considering the relatively small LED user number (and also the fact that people trying out new things/pioneers usually are newer reefers) it doesn't surprise me at all that there are few stunning tanks with LEDs. The fact that they do exist on almost all forums (And as TOTM and QDTOTM) is proof enough that LEDs can and will grow and color a coral, just as a MH or T5.

Saying that LED doesn't cover as good as T5 is erroneous by default. True enough, 1 LED won't give as good a spread as 1 T5 tube, but that's not really comparing apples to apples.

A good T5 fixture with premium reflectors (or MH) has to be compared to an equally well built LED fixture, with correct optics and spacing.

 

[Chicago]

Tagging

 

[MedRed]

It's kinda funny, in all honesty, it's far between great tanks with T5s (or MH), and considering the relatively small LED user number (and also the fact that people trying out new things/pioneers usually are newer reefers)

I don't find this to be true at all. It seems that most people are either converting existing tanks or starting new builds with LEDs are experienced reefers.

The fact that they do exist on almost all forums (And as TOTM and QDTOTM) is proof enough that LEDs can and will grow and color a coral, just as a MH or T5.

examples please... I don't think this statement is very qualified

Saying that LED doesn't cover as good as T5 is erroneous by default. True enough, 1 LED won't give as good a spread as 1 T5 tube, but that's not really comparing apples to apples.

A good T5 fixture with premium reflectors (or MH) has to be compared to an equally well built LED fixture, with correct optics and spacing.

I must have missed something. I don't recall anyone saying anything about this. I had better coverage using LEDs than I do with a single halide. With LEDS, you can have your light source coming from multiple places. That being said, full depth T5's will probably give the most uniform light.

 

[Moser]

Interesting discussion. I am not sure what you will make of these tanks, but they are long term LED tanks that are up there with any SPS tank with any lighting.

Please don't ask for further proof that they are real, or switched with MH when nobody is looking, or growth shots. This is what it is.... I have seen some growth shots of the cube tank. It's an awesome tank started with small colonies.


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Mo

 

[MedRed]

While both are nice tanks with some very nice colonies, both are on the blue side and showing fluorescence that is seen under actinic plus the green, blue, purple, brown.

 

[Vannpytt]

examples please... I don't think this statement is very qualified

As much as I hate to feed the troll

Now, don't bother baiting anymore. I won't argue with trolls.

 

[MedRed]

As much as I hate to feed the troll

Now, don't bother baiting anymore. I won't argue with trolls.

One example? and a zeovit at that? healthy zeovit tanks have amazing color compared to a non zeovit tank. This would be the best of the best. Let's take a closer look at this tank...

look at the color of the sand...

Did you look at any of the zeovit tanks on that site not using LEDs? All of the non LED Zeovit tanks have much better color. That LED tank still displays the classic muted, homogenous colors when put in perspective with similar tanks. This may be fine or even ideal for some, but it gets sad when you think about this is as good as its going to get. Just as with non zeovit systems... the traditional lighting shows that there is a level in color above what LEDs are capable of.

 

[Big E]

A lot of people like the pastel/bleached look. I'm not one of them......I want my colors to be bold & bright, except the pieces that are originally pastel by nature.

That aside, everytime I've seen these only LED tanks, where's the popping red & for a lesser matter pink.? I've seen a lot of pink stylos & bird nest, but the acros are always flat looking unless they are blue, green or dark purple.

Green acros always pop the most under these LED tanks.

One other thing that has to be considered......someone that has kept acros for a long time are very picky & know what they want........I guess I'm one of them. It doesn't mean corals should be colored a "right way" it's just a matter of taste. If the colors aren't in your face, I'm disappointed in the look.

Btw, that first tank that Moser posted is beautiful on two of three levels that are important to me. Large colonies, great aquascape are two of them.......it's missing the third..... popping colors.

 

[Big E]

Jane...you are taking this too seriously. People are going to continue to be skeptics until a few amazing tanks pop up that have only used LED, and the fact is it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it will soon. The same thing happened when T5 came out...people.want definitive and consistent proof that LED can grow SPS that is TOTM worthy.

This pretty much sums it up for me............once this starts happening people will mimic the setups, buy the brand of lights or use the same settngs.

I'm just looking for more definative proof that LED only lighting has arrived.

 

[Moser]

While both are nice tanks with some very nice colonies, both are on the blue side and showing fluorescence that is seen under actinic plus the green, blue, purple, brown.

:hmm5:

Is that all you have to say??.... I would expect you to say

" Yes, it seems LED's have worked on this occasion."

Period!.
Mo

 

[Moser]

One example? and a zeovit at that? healthy zeovit tanks have amazing color compared to a non zeovit tank. This would be the best of the best. Let's take a closer look at this tank...

look at the color of the sand...

Did you look at any of the zeovit tanks on that site not using LEDs? All of the non LED Zeovit tanks have much better color. That LED tank still displays the classic muted, homogenous colors when put in perspective with similar tanks. This may be fine or even ideal for some, but it gets sad when you think about this is as good as its going to get. Just as with non zeovit systems... the traditional lighting shows that there is a level in color above what LEDs are capable of.

I'd love to see examples of what you exactly mean.... Are you claiming that every DTOTQ is better than Bon's?.

Did you see Ehsan's ( in the video) LED tank?. The stags?. the tables?. Are they all fluorescing to give that colour?. I'd be grateful for your detailed breakdown of how bad Ehsan's tank really is.

I looked at the video from Vivid Aquariums. Dave thinks some corals look better on the LED side. In particular, the Jedi Mind Trick.... your notes suggest the LED side was far inferior with this coral. In fact, you suggest that most of the LED side was inferior, whilst Dave says that the LED side is definitely not inferior.

I'm a little confused. Your claims are completely opposite to what Dave claims in the video. What's going on?...is he lying?.


I still have an open mind. I'm looking at switching.

Could you give us a detailed account of what settings you used, did you start with too high a power?.... Not allow acclimation to the LED?. What effects you observed- bleaching?. What nutrient levels you had etc etc. Photos... You haven't really given much info except to say LED's don't work with very little to of your own work to back it up.

I was interested to see David Saxby running LED's and also Stuart Bertram. Vested interest?, yes, but also a lot to lose!!.

Do you reckon Ehsan hides away MH under the stand??.

Also, One of the benefits of LED is the Royal Blue. If people choose to show pics with Royal Blue, so be it. It makes corals look nice. You can't claim that it doesn't count. That is where they excel?!. That is why Actinic tubes are used?!.

All that counts is what the corals look like. I'd be interested to hear/ see your thoughts, with actual examples of your own work to what you are referring to and why LED's are so bad. Please reference Ehsan's tank in your breakdown and what in particular is poor in his tank.

Thanks
Mo

 

[Moser]

MedRed's experience is a perfect example, he was gung ho LED for quite a while, and the pics of his tank clearly show what a drastic change his tank underwent by putting a better light source over his tank. It was growing before, it was colorful before but now it is doing what he expected it to do with the LEDs, but never did. He isn't alone in noticing this difference. Don't dismiss that experience of others. He had the sedan now he has a better performing car.
.

This is what I find interesting.

Although there are no photo's to show MedRed's detailed experience, everybody I have spoken to that are imo knowledgable about LED's suggest that it is likely he started the LED's too bright. The LED's never got a chance to acclimatise and never thrived.

As soon as you switch the spectrum back to what they can tolerate, they are fine ie T5's. what would have happened if he had started with half the LED intensity that he did and slowly built up?.... the corals brown off a bit and then pick up the pace and colour, or so I have been told.....

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear thoughts.

Mo

 

[Moser]

A lot of people like the pastel/bleached look. I'm not one of them......I want my colors to be bold & bright, except the pieces that are originally pastel by nature.

That aside, everytime I've seen these only LED tanks, where's the popping red & for a lesser matter pink.? I've seen a lot of pink stylos & bird nest, but the acros are always flat looking unless they are blue, green or dark purple.

Green acros always pop the most under these LED tanks.

One other thing that has to be considered......someone that has kept acros for a long time are very picky & know what they want........I guess I'm one of them. It doesn't mean corals should be colored a "right way" it's just a matter of taste. If the colors aren't in your face, I'm disappointed in the look.

Btw, that first tank that Moser posted is beautiful on two of three levels that are important to me. Large colonies, great aquascape are two of them.......it's missing the third..... popping colors.

Ehsan's tank is not popping colours?..... Can I see pictures of your tank please. It must be awesome. Sorry I missed it if I have.....

Here are a few from Ehsan's LED tank.

Thanks
Mo