Jeremy's 250g build - Take II

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12657500#post12657500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99

In sump skimmers are a waste of money?

IMO, why not spend the extra couple bucks and drain feed the skimmer. The recovery time of the head foam is about half and it does not fluctuate with overflow surges. Like I said, IMO ;)

My skimmer kicks butt, but I am still kicking myself for not doing it right the first time. I am not the resident skimmer expert though; Jim?
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12657161#post12657161 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marko9
I am thoughly convinced that unless a skimmer is external, do not waste the money. Thanks Jim ;)

:lmao:

You're welcome :D

I'm thoroughly convinced that I need a sand bed to get my colors as nice as yours ;)

Really though, insump skimmers work great too. Just how I like to roll :p


Jt, how big are you cutting the hole?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12657682#post12657682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
Jeremy, another vote for a 1-hole cut.
Regarding your pump, I've always used CSL (now Velocity/Poseiden) external pumps because they ARE silent. Not a popular pump for some because it adds some heat to your water. The T4 will give you 1080 gph at 10'

http://www.bluelineaquatics.com/products/water_pump/velocity_chart.html

I ran a CSL T4 on my last 240g. Currently running a Poseiden T3 on my 180g. I also like it for it's small footprint.

Regarding the heat, just read on another thread today from another Velocity owner that pointing a fan at it on low speed helps reduce the amount of heat added to the water. I suppose the fan helps cool the pump down (since it's a water-cooled pump)

For some reason I thought the Velocity's maxed out with a much lower output. That's a very good option. Without the fan, it'll be even quieter.

I do have a Snapper, not even close under this head situation, and a Wahoo, which will run about 1375 gph at 10'. The Wahoo is a pressure pump with the Baldor motor, but it is MASSIVE! I just plugged it in and it is very quiet though. Only drawbacks to the Wahoo are it's size and energy consumption(about 170w). Only 30w more than the T4, so not too bad I guess. So, size difference is about all then.
I think I'll wait to get my sump from Keith and see how well things fit in the sump and go from there. I think I'll just use the Wahoo. If it ends up being too noisy, I'll get the T4. Without the fan, it'll be even quieter.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12657779#post12657779 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jim_S
:lmao:

You're welcome :D

I'm thoroughly convinced that I need a sand bed to get my colors as nice as yours ;)

Really though, insump skimmers work great too. Just how I like to roll :p


Jt, how big are you cutting the hole?

Good question. I'm thinking 3" wide by 10" or so high. Depends on how much room I'll need to get everything through. I'm gonna sketch out the plumbing tonight and see what I need to pick up and exactly what size pipes I'm running through the wall.
At first guess, looks like 2 2" for the CL, a 1.5" for the skimmer return, a 1.5" for the fuge return, and 2 1", one for the skimmer feed and one for the fuge/chiller feed. That'll be a pretty tight fit in a 10" long gap, but should fit. If not, I can always expand it a bit as needed.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12658341#post12658341 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rafael13
how much acrilyc tubing do you need?

I have some a few pieces on diferent sizes

Looking for about a foot of 2" or so clear or smoke grey tubing.
 
I'm not convinced at all. If your skimmer is keeping up with bio load trates are at a minimal and everything is thriving isnt that a good skimmer? You dont want to take everything out. JMO also:)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12658561#post12658561 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99
I'm not convinced at all. If your skimmer is keeping up with bio load trates are at a minimal and everything is thriving isnt that a good skimmer? You dont want to take everything out. JMO also:)

With an overflow fed skimmer, you'll be pulling out more of the proteins before they have a chance to break down in the system, and can actually get a more appropriately sized skimmer for the system and not "over-skim".
I can also prove, in person, that the externally H&S will get a head of foam going much faster than an internal BK after feedings. Fluctuating sump levels can also wreak havoc on an internal skimmers ability to skim consistently, and god help you if you shut off the return pump without turning the skimmer off first. Overflow city!
 
would this do???

IMG_0818.jpg
[/IMG]
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12659273#post12659273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rafael13
j/k :D

I have some more, I just have to find it(smaller)
IMG_0816.jpg
[/IMG]

Yeah, I'd say the first one would be a wee bit of overkill!:lol:

What's the length and diameter of those smaller ones next to the pepsi?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12658695#post12658695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtarmitage
With an overflow fed skimmer, you'll be pulling out more of the proteins before they have a chance to break down in the system, and can actually get a more appropriately sized skimmer for the system and not "over-skim".
I can also prove, in person, that the externally H&S will get a head of foam going much faster than an internal BK after feedings. Fluctuating sump levels can also wreak havoc on an internal skimmers ability to skim consistently, and god help you if you shut off the return pump without turning the skimmer off first. Overflow city!

Assuming one runs an internal skimmer with a dedicated skimmer compartment in the sump and ATO (i.e. steady water level), and the tank drains water directly into the skimmer section, *how much* better is an External skimmer?

I'd agree that theoretically an external would skim *more* if it's direct fed, but skimmers are not 100% efficient. In other words, even though an external is direct fed, the skimmer can't process all that water with the 1st pass. Much of that water is drained out.

With an internal skimmer, the skimmer is taking in raw water since it's in it's own compartment. The water that drains the skimmer is returned to the skimmer compartment. In a sense, it is reciruclating as well.

I'm curious as to how much more an Ext skimmer would skim given these 2 scenarios.
 
T,well put. I guess i just assumed everyone had a seperate compartment in there sump for a skimmer. I always have so my water does not fluctuate.

I have shut my return pump off often never have i ever had an overflow with an internal skimmer. but i will assume you are talking about if your skimmers is not in a dedicated compartment in your sump?


Mark, I have yet to see an Ext just an extra couple bucks more than an INT. Its usally ridiculous and for what? Never understood the extra cost of a EXt. Plus there is no real data to prove a Ext is better, or did i miss that?


Jt, no pics of the days work?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12659806#post12659806 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
Assuming one runs an internal skimmer with a dedicated skimmer compartment in the sump and ATO (i.e. steady water level), and the tank drains water directly into the skimmer section, *how much* better is an External skimmer?

I'd agree that theoretically an external would skim *more* if it's direct fed, but skimmers are not 100% efficient. In other words, even though an external is direct fed, the skimmer can't process all that water with the 1st pass. Much of that water is drained out.

With an internal skimmer, the skimmer is taking in raw water since it's in it's own compartment. The water that drains the skimmer is returned to the skimmer compartment. In a sense, it is reciruclating as well.

I'm curious as to how much more an Ext skimmer would skim given these 2 scenarios.

Actually, a better way to set up the sump would be to have a seperate compartment for the water to drain into initially that is taller than the skimmer compartment, then flows over the baffle into the skimmer area. This would prevent the water level fluctuations even better. Then have the skimmer compartment baffle that is higher than the water level in the return section. The first compartment would even out any fluctuations in the overflow drainage caused by crud or air bubbles.

If you think of the proteins that are coming in directly from the overflow, a significant portion will be those that already have migrated to the surface of the water and will be easiest to skim in a single pass, and less likely to simply travel through the skimmer. As opposed to an internal where those same proteins will again end up on the surface of the sump water only to travel back into the main system until they eventually get skimmed out.
Of course, this theory of direct fed is still merely an opinion, but if the process is thought through logically it makes sense. How or earth you would be able to prove it is another matter. Do I believe direct fed to be more efficient than internal? Yes. Does it make the world of difference? Absolutely not. I did buy an internal originally after all, so even in my mind, it's not a significant difference. I'm just a logic guy, and to me, it makes sense.

I have witnessed though, that external do tend to be able to overcome the oils from foods, etc that knock the foam head down, faster than internals. The only way that I can come up with that may explain this is the higher air/water pass through ratios. Especially with a dual recirc fed off of something like a Maxi 1200, you've got a lot of air being generated in the skimmer body with a relatively low pass through of water. 1900 air/ 1100 water. The BK 200 runs about 1000 air/ 2000 water, which is typical of a non recirc.

Let me be very clear though, I am no expert, and am very much still learning and could very well be completely wrong. It is a theory only, and I happen to believe this theory to be true. Don't take it as BK bashing either, cause I still love my BK, and if I could comfortably have afforded another BK, especially a D250 or 300 Ext, that is what I would own at this moment. I also like the SM's, and very nearly bought one of the SM 250's. Actually had Brandon at Your Reef getting ready to fill out the paperwork to become a BK distributor to get one for me. Later that same day, the doctors bill for my wife's latest CAT scan came in, and Mark and I, and a couple of others were discussing the merits of a single large pump skimmer like the BK's vs. multiple smaller pump skimmers like the H&S, which got me thinking along the potential for finding a deal on H&S. We all know how rarely used BK's become available, so the chance of getting one at a serious discount(a price which I could justify to myself given current financial circumstances) was extremely remote. A week later the H&S came up for sale. Now I just need to sell my BK to pay for it.:(
So, do I think that the H&S is better than a comparable BK, especially external, no. I'd say the opposite is true. Do I think the H&S is better than a BK internal? In terms of production, maybe, maybe not. I really don't know. I know 1900l/air is better than 1000l/air in the same diameter body. In terms of build, quietness, attractiveness, even long term pump performance? No, I believe BK wins hands down in these areas. Would I have bought a BK 250 deluxe external for $1000 over the H&S? You bet your booty! Single pump or not. The real question is, would someone ever sell a BK 250 D ext for $1000? Not a chance.
The real question is what skimmer will I own 1, 3, 10 years down the road? That'd be a good question, and it is quite likely to be another BK eventually. Especially a dual pump version with a DC variable pump!!!! Gotta save a few nickels first.:lol:

Many of may have noticed the equipment list that I have compiled is, well, rather high end $$$$ components. After build take I, I came to the realization that I was never satisfied with the equipment that I had. Always looking to see what else was out there, buying that, and still not completely happy. As Mark can attest, I've got 2 large cabinets in the garage FILLED with reef stuff. You should've seen it last year. I decided to sell all the "unsatisfactory" items, pool the $, and get equipment that I'd be considerably less likely to get dis-satisfied with, or even if I did, would hold their resale value. Why buy junk that may get replaced in a year, just to have it sit on a shelf in the garage? I am now pretty much a high end junky. Even today, I darn near bought a Red Dragon 4.5 M3 pump to feed the chiller and fuge. That's nearly 5 bills to feed a fuge!!! Why would I even consider it? Well, it had the features that I wanted for that piece of equipment. The right flow rate at 10' head, silent, low energy consumption, dependable, quality piece of equipment that I'd be very unlikely to need to replace in the forseable future. You see the way my mind works? Now, of course the budget and common sense got the better of me, and I had in my cabinet, a pump that would get the job done very well. Damn logic and common sense!:mad2:

Anyhow, enough of that. I did pick up some acrylic tubing and a sheet of acrylic to make the silencers for the H&S, even though it'll be in the garage. Thanks Rafael.:) I still need to pick up a couple of odds and ends for that little project, but it won't be long.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12660183#post12660183 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99
T,well put. I guess i just assumed everyone had a seperate compartment in there sump for a skimmer. I always have so my water does not fluctuate.

I have shut my return pump off often never have i ever had an overflow with an internal skimmer. but i will assume you are talking about if your skimmers is not in a dedicated compartment in your sump?


Mark, I have yet to see an Ext just an extra couple bucks more than an INT. Its usally ridiculous and for what? Never understood the extra cost of a EXt. Plus there is no real data to prove a Ext is better, or did i miss that?


Jt, no pics of the days work?

As for the ability to shut off the pump without the int skimmer overflowing, it all depends on your system. In my garage system I've got a dedicated compartment for the skimmer which holds the water level very well, but the return pump section is not that large, and when one of the pumps for the 2 tanks gets turned off, that return section fills up. Once it gets higher than the baffle on the return or skimmer chamber, the water level in the skimmer will also rise, causing it to overflow. Come on by and I can give you a demonstration. If the sump can be set up to handle the extra water without affecting the level in the skimmer compartment, perfect. If not, all the crud your skimmer did collect just got dumped into the sump.

For most of the higher end skimmers, the int vs. ext price difference tends to run from $100 to $400. I agree that it's absurd. I understand more care has to be taken to insure that it wont leak, and more parts will be needed, but come on. I'm OK with $100, but more than that just chaps my hide.:mad2: It forces me to decide between what I believe is the ideal way to run a skimmer for me and the $. You can see which way I went the first time around, and the extra couple hundred was why.

As for pics of the days work, there would need to be SOME progress to report. Alas, there is none. Not to say I didn't do anything, just not much. Sorted what plumbing I did have, just to realize that I had almost none of the fittings that I needed to get anywhere, and being a Sunday, all of the specialty irrigation shops are closed. Making a run in the morning. The kids also kept me from doing pretty much anything anyhow. Now you see why I'm always up at 1 am! THAT is when I actually have time to do things.
 
Jt, have you been hanging around Doug?:lol:

Yeah, I find skimmers so personal and hate all the heated discussions i see on them so i will stop, before it gets to that and gets silly. I have only had 3 and they were what one would consider budget Skimmers.

ER RS 180
DAS EX1
MSX 200

I really like the MSX. Think it is doing great. DAS was cool also. My father in law has the EX 3 and it pulls out some foul stuff BTW his is drain fed:D.

I think one day i will try a Deltec. Don't ask me why i always bash that they are overpriced and ones i have seen were not built like tanks. But man alot that have owned them are very passionate about them and they do seem to do a very good job. That will probably be my one high end skimmer i will own or maybe a ATB not sure
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12660313#post12660313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99
Jt, have you been hanging around Doug?:lol:

Yeah, I find skimmers so personal and hate all the heated discussions i see on them so i will stop, before it gets to that and gets silly. I have only had 3 and they were what one would consider budget Skimmers.

ER RS 180
DAS EX1
MSX 200

I really like the MSX. Think it is doing great. DAS was cool also. My father in law has the EX 3 and it pulls out some foul stuff BTW his is drain fed:D.

I think one day i will try a Deltec. Don't ask me why i always bash that they are overpriced and ones i have seen were not built like tanks. But man alot that have owned them are very passionate about them and they do seem to do a very good job. That will probably be my one high end skimmer i will own or maybe a ATB not sure

:lol: I think he must be rubbing off! I've read a few too many of his posts lately, including those on the lineage thread.

My list of skimmers is a wee bit longer...and I have never been happy with any of them until recently, and even those I'd like changed.
My perfect skimmer: External, ie recirc.(gone over why already), dual pump in case one ever goes down I'm not left skimmerless, just less skimmed, 250-300mm body that is taller than my BK, but shorter than the H&S, oversized collection cup, silencers on the air intakes, removeable inner cone on the cup, with a SCH. and thick/heavy duty everything. From the sounds of it, take the new BK SM 300, possibly increase it's height(judging by other BK's), make the inner part of the collection cup removeable like on the BK minis(this may already be done, don't know), and make it external. Oh yeah, and price this bad boy under $2k. Oh, oh yeah, use the brushless DC variable pump and still price it under $2k!!!!!!!!! Ahhhhhh. I guess I should wake up now.
 
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