JJ Stecchino's new 180g Starfire reef tank
- Thread starter jjstecchino
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jjstecchino
New member
I thought so as well, but again I have never run a skimmer with fw so I don't know for sure.
melev
Well-known member
If you want to see bubbles now, dump in a good cup of vinegar and enjoy. 
You can get 1/4" foam at Home Depot. It is sold as a rolled up product, and would still cushion the base of the sump.
1/2" isn't much room, but it should work. You could do a dry run to verify this. Before you install the sump, apply some clear contact paper to the ceiling area above the skimmer. That's the thinnest material I can think of. Air vents out of the cup's lid all the time, and it would be blowing against the wooden stand material. If the skimmer overflows, the foam and byproducts would soak into the wood. With the contact paper, you can wipe it clean with a sponge from time to time.
You can get 1/4" foam at Home Depot. It is sold as a rolled up product, and would still cushion the base of the sump.
1/2" isn't much room, but it should work. You could do a dry run to verify this. Before you install the sump, apply some clear contact paper to the ceiling area above the skimmer. That's the thinnest material I can think of. Air vents out of the cup's lid all the time, and it would be blowing against the wooden stand material. If the skimmer overflows, the foam and byproducts would soak into the wood. With the contact paper, you can wipe it clean with a sponge from time to time.
jjstecchino
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15275631#post15275631 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
If you want to see bubbles now, dump in a good cup of vinegar and enjoy.
You can get 1/4" foam at Home Depot. It is sold as a rolled up product, and would still cushion the base of the sump.
1/2" isn't much room, but it should work. You could do a dry run to verify this. Before you install the sump, apply some clear contact paper to the ceiling area above the skimmer. That's the thinnest material I can think of. Air vents out of the cup's lid all the time, and it would be blowing against the wooden stand material. If the skimmer overflows, the foam and byproducts would soak into the wood. With the contact paper, you can wipe it clean with a sponge from time to time.
Thanks for the always good advice. I'll look for the 1/4 styrofoam and contact paper.
Bad news. I will likely have to wait another 4 weeks for the tank to be built again to the right specs. It is a pain but I don't want to settle for the smaller drains instead of the 1.5" bulkheads I wanted.
In the meantime I have 160 pounds of Marcorocks that I may start curing.
Does anybody care to give some details on the vinegar, muriatic acid, the phosphate issue with those rocks and the whole cooking process in general?
jjstecchino
New member
Marcorocks, PO4 and Muriatic Acid
Marcorocks, PO4 and Muriatic Acid
Since I have time on my hands I have been reading in the Chemistry forum an interesting thread about PO4 leaching from live rocks and different methods to counteract it.
My old tank is succumbing to hair algae and despite how many water changes I do, I do not seem to be able to lower PO4 for more than a couple of days at a time. I am doing very sparse feeding. My feeling is that PO4 is leaching from the live rocks. I would like to avoid all this on the new tank.
There is some rumor that PO4 would leach in significant amount from Marcorocks. is this founded?
It would be very helpful to know. If this is more than a rumor I would definitely consider a bath in Hydrochloric acid, however my preference would be to avoid messing with strong and dangerous acids unless absolutely necessary. Ideally I would like to just cure these rocks (I have 160lb of it) and be done with it.
I would definitely bleach and muriatic acid the old rocks once I move all the critters to the new setup.
I may post this question on a separate thread, however I would appreciate anybody advice.
Marcorocks, PO4 and Muriatic Acid
Since I have time on my hands I have been reading in the Chemistry forum an interesting thread about PO4 leaching from live rocks and different methods to counteract it.
My old tank is succumbing to hair algae and despite how many water changes I do, I do not seem to be able to lower PO4 for more than a couple of days at a time. I am doing very sparse feeding. My feeling is that PO4 is leaching from the live rocks. I would like to avoid all this on the new tank.
There is some rumor that PO4 would leach in significant amount from Marcorocks. is this founded?
It would be very helpful to know. If this is more than a rumor I would definitely consider a bath in Hydrochloric acid, however my preference would be to avoid messing with strong and dangerous acids unless absolutely necessary. Ideally I would like to just cure these rocks (I have 160lb of it) and be done with it.
I would definitely bleach and muriatic acid the old rocks once I move all the critters to the new setup.
I may post this question on a separate thread, however I would appreciate anybody advice.
melev
Well-known member
I have no idea, since I only use live rock in my tanks.
For PO4 removal, I like Blue Life's Phosphate Control. Measure the tank to get a reading of what it is, then dose accordingly. The product turns the PO4 into a flocculant, or a small solid speck (lots of them) that your skimmer can export overnight.
Years ago, my 280g reef was measuring 3.0ppm of Phosphate. It was so high that the rock and sand was super saturated. By working hard with phosphate removers, I was able to get it all out of the system. It took about six months, but it was super high as you can see.
PO4 isn't an issue in my tank any more. It goes up a bit (.1ppm to .5ppm at the most) and I'll dose Phosphate Control, knocking it back down to zero again. I think I dose it about every two months, although it would probably be better if I figured out exactly how much it rises and drip in a few drops each week instead to keep it low all the time. meh.
For PO4 removal, I like Blue Life's Phosphate Control. Measure the tank to get a reading of what it is, then dose accordingly. The product turns the PO4 into a flocculant, or a small solid speck (lots of them) that your skimmer can export overnight.
Years ago, my 280g reef was measuring 3.0ppm of Phosphate. It was so high that the rock and sand was super saturated. By working hard with phosphate removers, I was able to get it all out of the system. It took about six months, but it was super high as you can see.
PO4 isn't an issue in my tank any more. It goes up a bit (.1ppm to .5ppm at the most) and I'll dose Phosphate Control, knocking it back down to zero again. I think I dose it about every two months, although it would probably be better if I figured out exactly how much it rises and drip in a few drops each week instead to keep it low all the time. meh.
jjstecchino
New member
Marc, I seem to understand that even if the rocks will leach PO4, by exporting that out with Blue Life Phosphate control or other means, eventually the rocks will have no more PO4 to leach out. Im I correct?
melev
Well-known member
Yep. That's exactly what would happen.
Marco rock is already bleached (all that I've seen, anyway). I don't know why anyone would buy it, then bleach it or put it in acid.
FYI, Muriatic Acid (HCL) will dissolve calcium carbonate. If you were to leave it soaking, I have to imagine you'd end up with very little rock at all, if it is calcium-based.
Marco rock is already bleached (all that I've seen, anyway). I don't know why anyone would buy it, then bleach it or put it in acid.
FYI, Muriatic Acid (HCL) will dissolve calcium carbonate. If you were to leave it soaking, I have to imagine you'd end up with very little rock at all, if it is calcium-based.
jjstecchino
New member
Unfortunately the reason for buying Marcorocks is that it is much cheaper than live rock. I am also fully aware that you get what you pay for and that a lot more work is needed with this kind of rocks.
As I understand the theory behind the HCl bath is to get rid of the superficial layer of the rocks that may have PO4 mixed to it.
Indeed if you leave the rocks long enough in enough acid you end up with a pile of Calcium Chloride, CO2, H2O and little rock left as you pointed out.
I am quite uncomfortable using strong acids.
What I may do is to put the new rocks on a tub with RODI water. Them test for PO4. If PO4 is low or nothing, I'll place the rocks in sw with some established live rocks to let them cure.
As I understand the theory behind the HCl bath is to get rid of the superficial layer of the rocks that may have PO4 mixed to it.
Indeed if you leave the rocks long enough in enough acid you end up with a pile of Calcium Chloride, CO2, H2O and little rock left as you pointed out.
I am quite uncomfortable using strong acids.
What I may do is to put the new rocks on a tub with RODI water. Them test for PO4. If PO4 is low or nothing, I'll place the rocks in sw with some established live rocks to let them cure.
melev
Well-known member
That's fine, and should work. You may need a freshwater phosphate test kit perhaps - I don't know.
The thing about acid is that once you are done, you have to be able to get rid of it. If you pour it out on concrete, you will bleach that spot as it etches it even as you rinse with a garden hose. If you pour it on soil, it burns as well. I usually dump mine out in an area that has no life anyway.
Are you going to use any liverock at all? It takes a long time to seed dead rock.
The thing about acid is that once you are done, you have to be able to get rid of it. If you pour it out on concrete, you will bleach that spot as it etches it even as you rinse with a garden hose. If you pour it on soil, it burns as well. I usually dump mine out in an area that has no life anyway.
Are you going to use any liverock at all? It takes a long time to seed dead rock.
jjstecchino
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15281887#post15281887 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
That's fine, and should work. You may need a freshwater phosphate test kit perhaps - I don't know.
The thing about acid is that once you are done, you have to be able to get rid of it. If you pour it out on concrete, you will bleach that spot as it etches it even as you rinse with a garden hose. If you pour it on soil, it burns as well. I usually dump mine out in an area that has no life anyway.
Are you going to use any liverock at all? It takes a long time to seed dead rock.
Yes I am planning to mix in 20-40lb of live rocks to seed the dead rocks.
I would have loved to go the way I did with the small tank.
I used aquacultured rocks from Tampa Bay Saltwater. The rocks were beautyful, full of starts, sponges, several brain corals and in general really full of life. However the price for enough rocks to make a 180g happy is ouch... $4500.
Also I think that these rocks after a few years started leaching PO4 so this and the price discouraged me to go that way.
As far as using HCl, it can be neutralized by NaOH until the solution Ph is 7. Than you have water and a bunch of NaCl and you can discard that anywhere without fear.
Having said that and having seen damage caused by strong acids and/or strong bases I am always reluctant using them unless strictly needed. Expecially so with children around.
melev
Well-known member
That's some pricy LR. For a 180g, I'd be looking at about 200 lbs of LR most likely. The LFS near me will order boxes of Fiji. You get 45 lbs for about $180 per box, sight unseen. That's not even 25% of the price you posted above. Something about South Carolina and LR pricing?
jjstecchino
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15282055#post15282055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
That's some pricy LR. For a 180g, I'd be looking at about 200 lbs of LR most likely. The LFS near me will order boxes of Fiji. You get 45 lbs for about $180 per box, sight unseen. That's not even 25% of the price you posted above. Something about South Carolina and LR pricing?
Man where did you get that incredulous bird? I love that picture!
Well the bird prompt me to check again and ... I have mispoken! Mea Culpa!
I was talking about aquacultured rocks from the florida gulf.
Tampa Bay Saltwater "pakage" for a 180g includes 360lb of live rocks, 180lb of live sand and critters such as hermit crabs, serpent stars etc. The price I remembered was $4500 however the price I just checked on their web site is $2138 plus airfreight shipping cost (this stuff is shipped in water and you have to pick it up at the airport as it arrives)
melev
Well-known member
I took the picture on Sunday at the Dallas World Aquarium. I have one other one that will come in handy in the future.
A lot of people have gotten away from TBS rock because of the mantis problem, it seems. They state they don't want any pests at all, which I understand, but the diversity of life usually outweighs the pest issue, I'd think. That package is more than double what you need, but I doubt you could get it for a mere $1100, right? Shipping is costly, that's for sure.
A lot of people have gotten away from TBS rock because of the mantis problem, it seems. They state they don't want any pests at all, which I understand, but the diversity of life usually outweighs the pest issue, I'd think. That package is more than double what you need, but I doubt you could get it for a mere $1100, right?
Shipping is costly, that's for sure.Figured I'd butt in at this point-
a) Hi- another South Carolinian!!
b) I bought TBS rock about three years ago and finally managed to catch my last mantis shrimp last week! (Three in all). Also be aware of Gorilla crabs- I had quite a few of those. But to echo what Melev said, the random life makes it worth it- I got a blenny swimming around in the bag!
c) love the sump/acrylic work
a) Hi- another South Carolinian!!
b) I bought TBS rock about three years ago and finally managed to catch my last mantis shrimp last week! (Three in all). Also be aware of Gorilla crabs- I had quite a few of those. But to echo what Melev said, the random life makes it worth it- I got a blenny swimming around in the bag!
c) love the sump/acrylic work
jjstecchino
New member
Hi leagues58, glad to see another South Carolinian as well.
I had no problem with bad pests on the TBS rocks. I just had 2 pistol shrimps but no gorilla crabs or mantis shrimps.
The rocks and the tank remained balanced for about 3 years than I started having a lot of trouble with phosphates. I have a strong feeling it is leaching from the rocks.
Now the tank needs to be taken down the rocks bleached and restarted as a quarantine tank.
Hey Claudio. This looks like a great start and the sump looks fantastic.
It has been my experience that the dry base rock seems to have quite a bit of PO4 locked up in it. I suspect, but have little to support my theory that is is simply a matter of once living things dying in the rock, having the rock absorb it and basically lock the po4 in it, even when dried and bleached. I've been able to prove this by soaking base rock in SW and letting it sit in a covered bucket for a week with circulation and testing for po4 at the end of the week. both times I did this I had a reading greater than .2 on an API and salifert kit.
My suggestion if you are worried about it is to soak the rock in a 1:1 water/vinegar ratio for about a day (muriatic acid works also, but I think the ratio is 4 parts water, 1 part acid). Then move the rocks into a cooking vessel (some type of bucket/container/tub) and soak in SW with some circulation, temps at or above 78 degrees and no light.This is a great time to add about 5-20% of live rock and begin the seeding process at the same time. At the end of each week test the water for PO4. if you have a PO4 reading, do a 100% water change and repeat until you have no PO4 reading. The vinegar bath on dry base rock will reduce the time of the cooking process.
HTH
Again, great build so far!
It has been my experience that the dry base rock seems to have quite a bit of PO4 locked up in it. I suspect, but have little to support my theory that is is simply a matter of once living things dying in the rock, having the rock absorb it and basically lock the po4 in it, even when dried and bleached. I've been able to prove this by soaking base rock in SW and letting it sit in a covered bucket for a week with circulation and testing for po4 at the end of the week. both times I did this I had a reading greater than .2 on an API and salifert kit.
My suggestion if you are worried about it is to soak the rock in a 1:1 water/vinegar ratio for about a day (muriatic acid works also, but I think the ratio is 4 parts water, 1 part acid). Then move the rocks into a cooking vessel (some type of bucket/container/tub) and soak in SW with some circulation, temps at or above 78 degrees and no light.This is a great time to add about 5-20% of live rock and begin the seeding process at the same time. At the end of each week test the water for PO4. if you have a PO4 reading, do a 100% water change and repeat until you have no PO4 reading. The vinegar bath on dry base rock will reduce the time of the cooking process.
HTH
Again, great build so far!
jjstecchino
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15284676#post15284676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hop
Hey Claudio. This looks like a great start and the sump looks fantastic.
It has been my experience that the dry base rock seems to have quite a bit of PO4 locked up in it. I suspect, but have little to support my theory that is is simply a matter of once living things dying in the rock, having the rock absorb it and basically lock the po4 in it, even when dried and bleached. I've been able to prove this by soaking base rock in SW and letting it sit in a covered bucket for a week with circulation and testing for po4 at the end of the week. both times I did this I had a reading greater than .2 on an API and salifert kit.
My suggestion if you are worried about it is to soak the rock in a 1:1 water/vinegar ratio for about a day (muriatic acid works also, but I think the ratio is 4 parts water, 1 part acid). Then move the rocks into a cooking vessel (some type of bucket/container/tub) and soak in SW with some circulation, temps at or above 78 degrees and no light.This is a great time to add about 5-20% of live rock and begin the seeding process at the same time. At the end of each week test the water for PO4. if you have a PO4 reading, do a 100% water change and repeat until you have no PO4 reading. The vinegar bath on dry base rock will reduce the time of the cooking process.
HTH
Again, great build so far!
Thank you Hop for your prompt reply. I like the vinegar idea much more than the muriatic acid. Do I use white vinegar? I have to figure out how many gallons of vinegar to soak 160lb of rocks
jjstecchino
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15285125#post15285125 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hop
No worries
I am going for a 44g brute and 10g of wall mart white vinegar in the morning. Tap water should be ok to do the vinegar thinghy right?
Then wash well and cook in saltwater. Should I put the skimmer on the cooking vat?
