SquidwardTentacles
New member
Years ago I had a tang that got ick. I fed him raw garlic sliced very fine. It cleared up in two days.
Judgement Call on a sick fish
- Thread starter E_rock
- Start date
jeremyjoslin
New member
It looks like it cleared it up....
jeremyjoslin
New member
Eric,
Same thing happened to me a few years ago except that I was working a long string of 12 hour days (and had a newborn at home) and couldn't tend to the tank when I saw the signs first starting. Next thing I knew the whole tank was crashed. It's taken 2 years to get back into the hobby.
You're asking the right questions....
Same thing happened to me a few years ago except that I was working a long string of 12 hour days (and had a newborn at home) and couldn't tend to the tank when I saw the signs first starting. Next thing I knew the whole tank was crashed. It's taken 2 years to get back into the hobby.
You're asking the right questions....
SquidwardTentacles
New member
I had the Purple for twelve (12) more years and recently sold it happy & healthy when I broke down my 125. You can be argumentative but I have facts...
Seriously,
Crytocaryon kills fish. It can't get in your tank unless you put it there. qaurantining fish and pre treating them prevents it.
It kills many, many ,way too many healthy fish and weak fish. Doesn't really matter much.
There are no effective in reef tank remedies: not garlic;not uv; not extra vitamins; not cinamon; not ginger;, not various commercial concoctions; not cleaner shrimp; not ozone; not potato chips,: not chocolate ice cream;not chicken soup ; nothing.
The choice is clear run a tank with ich or without . In between is just wishful thinking.
After 5 t o10 days or so a fish surviving intial infestaion often appears better because the parasite has had it's fill of fish and leaves to encyst and reproduce itself by 1 or 2 hundred fold for the second attack ,third attack and so on. Here's the math: 1 goes to 200, 200 goes to 40,000, 40000 goes to 8 million Just 3 life cycles or about 6 weeks with food supply limiting that of course. It stops when the fish die or in the sea or tank transfer method just move on. Once it breaks out of the cysts it has only a day to find fish to eat it strarves to death.
Fish sometimes develop partial immunity and resist seond and third attacks. The immunity isn't from a lack of stress or special foods , it's from exposure to the parasite in the first place. The immunity is to the particular strain of ich, there are thousands at least, and the immunity is only partial. Parsites still infest the tender tissue of the gills, nostiils and mouth often unseen and survive in the tank at lower levels just waiting for a non immune fish to be introduced or a minor stress event to occur leaving the partially immune fish more vulnerable. A single strain of ich without cross fertilization from other strains can keep going for years and breakout in a massive infestation at any time.
Crytocaryon kills fish. It can't get in your tank unless you put it there. qaurantining fish and pre treating them prevents it.
It kills many, many ,way too many healthy fish and weak fish. Doesn't really matter much.
There are no effective in reef tank remedies: not garlic;not uv; not extra vitamins; not cinamon; not ginger;, not various commercial concoctions; not cleaner shrimp; not ozone; not potato chips,: not chocolate ice cream;not chicken soup ; nothing.
The choice is clear run a tank with ich or without . In between is just wishful thinking.
After 5 t o10 days or so a fish surviving intial infestaion often appears better because the parasite has had it's fill of fish and leaves to encyst and reproduce itself by 1 or 2 hundred fold for the second attack ,third attack and so on. Here's the math: 1 goes to 200, 200 goes to 40,000, 40000 goes to 8 million Just 3 life cycles or about 6 weeks with food supply limiting that of course. It stops when the fish die or in the sea or tank transfer method just move on. Once it breaks out of the cysts it has only a day to find fish to eat it strarves to death.
Fish sometimes develop partial immunity and resist seond and third attacks. The immunity isn't from a lack of stress or special foods , it's from exposure to the parasite in the first place. The immunity is to the particular strain of ich, there are thousands at least, and the immunity is only partial. Parsites still infest the tender tissue of the gills, nostiils and mouth often unseen and survive in the tank at lower levels just waiting for a non immune fish to be introduced or a minor stress event to occur leaving the partially immune fish more vulnerable. A single strain of ich without cross fertilization from other strains can keep going for years and breakout in a massive infestation at any time.
jeremyjoslin
New member
Not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to avoid confusion that might be generated and passed along to other forum members.
The consensus is that even when it looks like a fish doesn't have it anymore, they still do (unless they were properly treated as described above and in other authoritative threads).
That's all.
I'm glad your fish remained healthy. Really.
I have facts and several 8 year old fish includinga Hippo anda pruple tang that suffered through newbie ich infestations.It took several years of no new fish and pins and needles tlc with all the false hope and cope stuff( uvs, garlic and so on) before it was gone. The facts are that ich kills lots of fish,lasts for years without treatment and provides a poor and often lethal environment for fish.
Tank transfer is the easiest and safest of the options, imo. You need two tanks or bins , newly mixed water aged and aerated for at least a few hours, preferably overnight to matched to tank water sg and temp , a couple of points under tank water sg is ok. No need to seed it since you'll be changing the water every 3 days and ammonia shouldn't build up very much in that time. I'd also put in some ammonia detoxifier like ammo lock after the first day.You can't use the ammonia detoxifier with any meds though but tank transfer doesn't call for any. Once you move the fish to the second tank; take the first one down and dry it and all equipment thoroughly. Set it back up for service for the next transfer. 4 transfers ,3 days each and no ich. Ifteh fish is severly infested , a formalin bath preceeding tank transfer mauy be helpful.
Now,your display is sitting fishless and needs to bet hat way for 72 days.
You'll need to set something up to keep those fish for a while . I'd use a 30 gallon bin or tank and use the 12 days involved in the transfer treatment to cycle it for ammonia just like any other tankie, use a spnge filter, media, bioballs ,whatever, perhaps some bacteria and feed the tank a little. Check the ammonia. . The extended period of observation might turn up other maladies and you'll be in a position to treat them.
Good luck.
fishman1234
New member
The squirlfish was in the tank for about a week before the ich started. I think the fresh water dip will help. But remember the guy at arc said its a last resort! I think the dip would help!!!! The way he was talking about it anyways.
The freshwater dip won't get at many embedded parasites . The formalin in tank water for 40 minutes will. Ich is a protoist it can't osmoregulate like a fish but it has varying tolerance for hyposaline conditions by strain. A brief freshwater dip won't get many of them as they are embedded and water won't readily diffuse into them enough to make a difference as it can when they are in the open water. The fish will also bloat as it's internal slainity is 1.008.
Spartan
Member
As many others have said, I think you have to treat ich pretty aggressively otherwise you really risk catastrophe. Your description of waxing and waning outbreaks is pretty typical but you've been lucky to have not had a more virulent strain ie- the fish weren't wiped out.
Personally I find treating with copper to be easiest and consistently reliable. I ve never done the tank transfer, because it is a lot of effort. Remember with copper you should use an isolation tank and have to leave the display without fish for several weeks. So both ttm and copper have drawbacks. QT next time
.
Personally I find treating with copper to be easiest and consistently reliable. I ve never done the tank transfer, because it is a lot of effort. Remember with copper you should use an isolation tank and have to leave the display without fish for several weeks. So both ttm and copper have drawbacks. QT next time
.
E_rock
New member
Update
Update
Well things took a turn for the worst...
While my tang looks somewhat better. You can see some scars around the face. And is still eating like a champ.
And the ich has spread to my clowns the female looks to be on death row. Male isnt doing well ether. Nether are eating now. And my squirrelfish is nowhere to be found. Chromis appear unaffected at the moment.
Update
Well things took a turn for the worst...
While my tang looks somewhat better. You can see some scars around the face. And is still eating like a champ.
And the ich has spread to my clowns the female looks to be on death row. Male isnt doing well ether. Nether are eating now. And my squirrelfish is nowhere to be found. Chromis appear unaffected at the moment.
E_rock
New member
Not sure what my first move should be. I am assuming ARC will sell formalin. Is that what I ask for? I could attempt to throw everything together tomorrow to start the tank transfer tomorrow.
I really dont want to but would the fish have a better chance at the LFS? I am not sure if they would attempt to threat them?
I really dont want to but would the fish have a better chance at the LFS? I am not sure if they would attempt to threat them?
Sorry to see that.
I think copper works, I've used it many times, but you can't use an ammonia detoxifier with it; some species of fish are sensitive to it and some strains of ich are resistive .
I thought tank transfer was too hard until I did it. Setting up a tank a tank quickly and managingammonia in an uncycled tank andkeeping copperlevels just rightcanb diffiuclt.
Doesn't take very long to take down a bare tank and dry it and reset it. It dries for aday or two while the fish are in the other one.
Gentle capture of the fish is easy too if you draw down the water in the tank first and remove all equipment.
I like the lack of worry about ammonia( I do check it though) and the fact that it is med free. I only do one or two or three fish at a time so a pair of ten gallons usually does it for me .
I also keep a 30 gallon cycled with live rock for observation after tank transfer.
When moving the fish minimize the water that moves with them. Any ich on or in the fish (trophonts stay in the fish 3 to 7 days) will obviously go with it,They are not very vulnerable to treatments at this stage as many are embedded;
but you want to avoid moving any of the other life stages, i.e.:
protomonts which exit the fish and go to the bottom to crawl around for 2 to 18 hours; before forming
tomonts the encysted stage 3 to 10 days
( usually but some have remained viable for up to72 days)which multiply into 100s of tomites ; which become
theronts the free swimming stage that searches out a fish within one 24 hours or it dies ending the cycle.
Mainly, if you catch the fish higher in the tank it's better. Some prefer to capture with a cup. I use a fine mesh net( brine shrimp net) to avoid snags and injury when the fish is small enough for that net or sometimes I'll cradle the fish with my hand.
The 4 transfer 3 day stay method takes advantage of the life cylce leaving parasites that have exited the fish behind. Dryness kills them at ay stage . Nothing is foolproof but it's pretty close and med free.
If youstart with lower sg in the first transfer tank, say to match the bagwater for a new fish you can also use the tranfers to slowly( .001 per day
) adjust the sg to match display sg lessening the stress of rapid jumps and the chances for osmotic shock.
I think copper works, I've used it many times, but you can't use an ammonia detoxifier with it; some species of fish are sensitive to it and some strains of ich are resistive .
I thought tank transfer was too hard until I did it. Setting up a tank a tank quickly and managingammonia in an uncycled tank andkeeping copperlevels just rightcanb diffiuclt.
Doesn't take very long to take down a bare tank and dry it and reset it. It dries for aday or two while the fish are in the other one.
Gentle capture of the fish is easy too if you draw down the water in the tank first and remove all equipment.
I like the lack of worry about ammonia( I do check it though) and the fact that it is med free. I only do one or two or three fish at a time so a pair of ten gallons usually does it for me .
I also keep a 30 gallon cycled with live rock for observation after tank transfer.
When moving the fish minimize the water that moves with them. Any ich on or in the fish (trophonts stay in the fish 3 to 7 days) will obviously go with it,They are not very vulnerable to treatments at this stage as many are embedded;
but you want to avoid moving any of the other life stages, i.e.:
protomonts which exit the fish and go to the bottom to crawl around for 2 to 18 hours; before forming
tomonts the encysted stage 3 to 10 days
( usually but some have remained viable for up to72 days)which multiply into 100s of tomites ; which become
theronts the free swimming stage that searches out a fish within one 24 hours or it dies ending the cycle.
Mainly, if you catch the fish higher in the tank it's better. Some prefer to capture with a cup. I use a fine mesh net( brine shrimp net) to avoid snags and injury when the fish is small enough for that net or sometimes I'll cradle the fish with my hand.
The 4 transfer 3 day stay method takes advantage of the life cylce leaving parasites that have exited the fish behind. Dryness kills them at ay stage . Nothing is foolproof but it's pretty close and med free.
If youstart with lower sg in the first transfer tank, say to match the bagwater for a new fish you can also use the tranfers to slowly( .001 per day
) adjust the sg to match display sg lessening the stress of rapid jumps and the chances for osmotic shock.
I don't think the lfs will take them. You could ask. Yes, they have foramlin. Ask for Hikari Ich X, it's a 3% formaldehyde solution. It's a challenge but that's why they call it a hobby. Look at it this way some of those fish can live 30 years ;so, you're the custodian of a decent sized chunk of life.
