Al Gore is getting the credit for the efforts of many who shall remain nameless. They don't do it for the glory, he does. the issue needs many front men and woman to champion the cause, he will get credit for being the first, even though Jacques Cousto was the first in my generation to point out the effects on the ocean's. I didn't intend to get off the subject of what Julian was talking about, its just that nature can deal with its elements moving around, we may not be happy with the economic impact or visual results. I have seen the Australian pine tree/maliluca/peacock bass and don't forget the first us hobiests are responsible for the Oscar and piranha. Don't hear about them any more why is that?
Julian Sprung's lecture must spark a debate
- Thread starter ninjamini
- Start date
If you think of that famous image of the earth as seen from Apollo as it circled the moon, we're all in this tiny little ecosystem. There are no "foreign" species. It's similar to our tanks, if you get a big fat fish that poops a lot it pollutes the environment for everyone and things go downhill from there.
IMO man is accelerating changes in our little ecosystem due to his presence and his waste products, just like the big fat fish. Here in America we're all talking green, while in Asia they're building coal-burning factories and they're trading in their bicycles for cars, putting thousands of new cars on the road every day.
Since the dawn of the planet life forms have come and go, and someday so will we most likely. The ones that could withstand the changing conditions thrive, while the ones that can't adapt die. That's the way it's always been, like it or not, that's the way it always will be.
Wherever there's an opportunity, a life form has evolved to take advantage of it. Our distant ancestors took advantage of the changing landscape, when forests became grasslands they ventured out. They adapted and thrived. Something will come along and learn to love Caulerpa, and probably eventually kill it all off. It may take a few thousand years, but it will happen. Koalas eat nothing but Eucalyptus, a smelly tough leaf. How long do you suppose that took?
IMO man is accelerating changes in our little ecosystem due to his presence and his waste products, just like the big fat fish. Here in America we're all talking green, while in Asia they're building coal-burning factories and they're trading in their bicycles for cars, putting thousands of new cars on the road every day.
Since the dawn of the planet life forms have come and go, and someday so will we most likely. The ones that could withstand the changing conditions thrive, while the ones that can't adapt die. That's the way it's always been, like it or not, that's the way it always will be.
Wherever there's an opportunity, a life form has evolved to take advantage of it. Our distant ancestors took advantage of the changing landscape, when forests became grasslands they ventured out. They adapted and thrived. Something will come along and learn to love Caulerpa, and probably eventually kill it all off. It may take a few thousand years, but it will happen. Koalas eat nothing but Eucalyptus, a smelly tough leaf. How long do you suppose that took?
ninjamini
New member
??? Ka passa Sadd but true. Whats the worst thing we can do???
I know...We can all go back to the big hair of the 80's and get some hair spray with CFCs. That would destroy the earth through global warming.
OK but really if we had a all out nuclear war we would devastate the earth. But in a 1000 years it would recover.
ManBearPig was not a bad GuyBearSwine How does al gore always work his way into this stuff. He was a do nothing VP and a terrible candidate.
loyalrogue
New member
Wow... just... wow.
How did this thread turn into a dumping ground for rightwing hate myths and Gore bashing?
I enjoy critical thinking and debate as much as the next guy, but I'm removing myself from this thread before my IQ drops any further.
How did this thread turn into a dumping ground for rightwing hate myths and Gore bashing?
I enjoy critical thinking and debate as much as the next guy, but I'm removing myself from this thread before my IQ drops any further.
slyfoxface
In Memoriam
kudzu covered forests are beautiful too
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
are there any links to Julian's lecture?
loyalrogue
New member
Not yet.
After video taping the entire lecture I came home only to find that my new Vista PC insn't compatible with my video camera, drivers, software, or any of my other video cature equipment and programs.
I am currently downloading, cropping, and converting the whole thing on an older/slower computer.
I should have it converted and uploaded to google video within the next two days.
Hey, Steve.
Nothing personal.
I am at the opposite political sprectrum from you and was a little offended, but that too has passed with no harm done.
I love a good political debate (and schooling my opponents with the actual facts), but RC is not the place I come for politics.
I have plenty of other forums that I go to that are 100% partisan smear factories. That's where I debate politics... not here.
After video taping the entire lecture I came home only to find that my new Vista PC insn't compatible with my video camera, drivers, software, or any of my other video cature equipment and programs.
I am currently downloading, cropping, and converting the whole thing on an older/slower computer.
I should have it converted and uploaded to google video within the next two days.
Hey, Steve.
Nothing personal.
I am at the opposite political sprectrum from you and was a little offended, but that too has passed with no harm done.
I love a good political debate (and schooling my opponents with the actual facts), but RC is not the place I come for politics.
I have plenty of other forums that I go to that are 100% partisan smear factories. That's where I debate politics... not here.
loyalrogue
New member
I stayed up late, and got it finished.
A low-res version is up on Google Video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5760453227971165207
If anyone would like a hi-res DVD copy just let me know and I'll burn one for you.
A low-res version is up on Google Video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5760453227971165207
If anyone would like a hi-res DVD copy just let me know and I'll burn one for you.
TheFishhead
New member
Hey all,
It is interesting to view the reactions to the subject of my lecture. Such reactions are to be expected, given that they represent the normal expression of conventional wisdom on the subject.
I explained in my lecture that the opinions I was expressing had their foundation in a very interesting book called Invasion Biology Critique of a Pseudoscience, by David I. Theodoropoulos.
You can read about the author and find links to some of his publications at:
http://dtheo.org/
On the subject of the post from jman77, well I can't help it if some people lose respect for me for sharing these ideas. I hope some of you who read my reply will investigate this subject further and form your own opinions. I do realize there is a mountain of scientific papers pushing the idea of invasion biology, I am not ignorant of that. Science does not work by concensus. On the contrary, it progresses through novel thinking.
See the following link to a lecture by Michael Crichton for a fascinating discussion of that idea:
http://www.michaelcrichton.net/speech-alienscauseglobalwarming.html
I take no credit for the novel thinking about invasion biology-- I only recognize the wisdom in Theodoropoulos' ideas, and hope to share it.
Regarding Melaleuca, one only has to view it from an airplane to fully appreciate what it does. It was planted to dry up sections of the everglades to prepare them for land development/construction, since it grows densely, transpires a lot of water, and thus dries up the wetland. However, viewed from the air it is clear that dense stands grow only along the margins of the everglades already damaged by construction.
Similarly Brazillian pepper is limited to deeply plowed areas, such as along the side of the road or farmland. It often grows in a line on plowed substrate right next to uninvaded, undamaged native forest.
I am not aware of any harm done by iguanas, aside from scaring the *#%& out of people not expecting a 4 foot reptile in the backyard. OK, maybe if you grow a particular type of non-native flowering plant you might get upset if the iguanas ate the flowers.
Pythons are scary too, but has there been or will there be any harm from them here?
Quaker parrots seem to be filling a niche once belonging to a native species of parrot that once ranged from Florida through the Carolinas-- it is now extinct. There are many more species of parrots now flying around south Florida. When they hit my Mango tree and damage the fruit I get annoyed, but of course the Mango is not native here either.
Piranhas. I tend to agree that they would not be welcome here in Florida! Call me a hypocrite!
Caulerpa-- a much maligned and distorted subject of invasion biology "research."
I refer interested readers to the following recent paper kindly sent to me by professor Jean Jaubert:
A century of warfare shoots holes in anti-Caulerpa campaign
J. R. M. Chisholm *, P. P. Povinec†, V. Briet*, J. Gastaud†, J. M. Jaubert*‡, S.-H. Lee†, I. Levy-Palomo †, M. Marchioretti*, and A. Minghelli-Roman*
*European oceanographic centre, CSM, Avenue Saint-Martin, MC 98000, Monaco
†International Atomic Energy Agency, Marine Environment Laboratory, 4 Quai Antoine 1er, MC 98000, Monaco
‡Oceanographic Museum, Avenue Saint-Martin, MC 98000, Monaco
Available from Nature Precedings <http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/npre.2007.1240.1> (2007)
David Theodoropoulos discusses Kudzu and Zebra mussels, among many others in his book-
Cheers,
Julian
It is interesting to view the reactions to the subject of my lecture. Such reactions are to be expected, given that they represent the normal expression of conventional wisdom on the subject.
I explained in my lecture that the opinions I was expressing had their foundation in a very interesting book called Invasion Biology Critique of a Pseudoscience, by David I. Theodoropoulos.
You can read about the author and find links to some of his publications at:
http://dtheo.org/
On the subject of the post from jman77, well I can't help it if some people lose respect for me for sharing these ideas. I hope some of you who read my reply will investigate this subject further and form your own opinions. I do realize there is a mountain of scientific papers pushing the idea of invasion biology, I am not ignorant of that. Science does not work by concensus. On the contrary, it progresses through novel thinking.
See the following link to a lecture by Michael Crichton for a fascinating discussion of that idea:
http://www.michaelcrichton.net/speech-alienscauseglobalwarming.html
I take no credit for the novel thinking about invasion biology-- I only recognize the wisdom in Theodoropoulos' ideas, and hope to share it.
Regarding Melaleuca, one only has to view it from an airplane to fully appreciate what it does. It was planted to dry up sections of the everglades to prepare them for land development/construction, since it grows densely, transpires a lot of water, and thus dries up the wetland. However, viewed from the air it is clear that dense stands grow only along the margins of the everglades already damaged by construction.
Similarly Brazillian pepper is limited to deeply plowed areas, such as along the side of the road or farmland. It often grows in a line on plowed substrate right next to uninvaded, undamaged native forest.
I am not aware of any harm done by iguanas, aside from scaring the *#%& out of people not expecting a 4 foot reptile in the backyard. OK, maybe if you grow a particular type of non-native flowering plant you might get upset if the iguanas ate the flowers.
Pythons are scary too, but has there been or will there be any harm from them here?
Quaker parrots seem to be filling a niche once belonging to a native species of parrot that once ranged from Florida through the Carolinas-- it is now extinct. There are many more species of parrots now flying around south Florida. When they hit my Mango tree and damage the fruit I get annoyed, but of course the Mango is not native here either.
Piranhas. I tend to agree that they would not be welcome here in Florida! Call me a hypocrite!
Caulerpa-- a much maligned and distorted subject of invasion biology "research."
I refer interested readers to the following recent paper kindly sent to me by professor Jean Jaubert:
A century of warfare shoots holes in anti-Caulerpa campaign
J. R. M. Chisholm *, P. P. Povinec†, V. Briet*, J. Gastaud†, J. M. Jaubert*‡, S.-H. Lee†, I. Levy-Palomo †, M. Marchioretti*, and A. Minghelli-Roman*
*European oceanographic centre, CSM, Avenue Saint-Martin, MC 98000, Monaco
†International Atomic Energy Agency, Marine Environment Laboratory, 4 Quai Antoine 1er, MC 98000, Monaco
‡Oceanographic Museum, Avenue Saint-Martin, MC 98000, Monaco
Available from Nature Precedings <http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/npre.2007.1240.1> (2007)
David Theodoropoulos discusses Kudzu and Zebra mussels, among many others in his book-
Cheers,
Julian
Thank you, Julian.
I enjoyed the presentation very much. Obviously it has sparked some interesting discussion.
I enjoyed the presentation very much. Obviously it has sparked some interesting discussion.
Thanks for your response. Unfortunately I was unable to see the lecture, but now seeing that you've graced us with your presence, to offer an explanation and further discussion, I'm going to watch your presentation.
I'm sure that once I see the presentation, it'll be just one of those things in this world that doesn't have a right answer, but lots of viewpoints from both sides. These things happen, and you've got to see both sides and draw your own conclusion (as you did). Very interesting subject.
I'm sure that once I see the presentation, it'll be just one of those things in this world that doesn't have a right answer, but lots of viewpoints from both sides. These things happen, and you've got to see both sides and draw your own conclusion (as you did). Very interesting subject.
