Karim's 1500gal dream reef

It is a kind of complex calc since the volume of water is one thing, the surface area of the buried container is another, and then the ground temperature all around it. My feeling is that even in summer, the ground will be quite cool more than a foot or two down, so if you managed to bury a few hundred gallon container, and just slowly circulate water through it only when the tank needs cooling, I'd bet you would satisfy all of your cooling needs.

Its a thermodynamics problem for sure. Only problem is I took thermo abooooout 11 years ago and dont have a great memory!
 
Same here. My reaction is to convert the design into an RLC circuit diagram and solve for currents and voltages!! Ha ha ha.
 
>>> I do think that in the interest of complexity though, it may be wise to either do a large surge, or a large wavemaker, and not both. The permutations of a system with both are many and it seems like a lot of work to have two systems that achieve basically the same thing, chaotic flow at times and smooth flow during others. For example, you could simply use just a surge, have returns on the top facing out, and returns on the bottom facing out, you could actuate just the top ones slowly for standard flow, fast for surge clockwise (out-down-back-up), and then actuate just the bottom ones slowly for reverse standard, and fast for reverse counterclockwise. I think in a manner like this, you could achieve steady laminar flow, fast chaotic flow, and multiple directions, without a ton of pumps (just a few actuated valves). <<<

Hmmm. So the two systems really achieve different goals. The "wavemaker" isn't really a wave maker. It's a circulating flow machine that creates a wall of water that flows throughout the given channel/quadrant together. This is really a full block of water flowing in the same direction.

The surge is part of the filter return and simply provides a flow pattern that is chaotic with a peak flow that the normal flow can't achieve. My experience is that this really helps stimulate coral structures to become resilient and solid.

Choosing between the two is like saying that I can have powerheads (circulating flow) or an overflow and return pump (surge), but not both. My systems may be larger, but they are really the same as any other tank in essence. One circulates flow inside the tank, and the other runs in a loop outside.

One variant is that this design doesn't have a forced return at all. By pushing all flow up into the over-tank refugium, the water going into the DT is all gravity driven. Regardless of surge or normal flow, the design is actually the same. The difference is the action of the actuators. Surge actuators are off-on-off. Normal flow actuators are always on at 25%, 50%, 75%, etc...

Why does that matter? A refugium is a living food source. Having the flow gravity fed into the DT preserves the life there. Having a surge from this same source literally "flushes" the life into the DT in a way that no other flow mechanism can achieve.

The two systems can be designed relatively independently and then super positioned because their critical variables are independent.

The surge's critical variables are the size of the overflow, the margin to the DT top, the design of the overflow and surge actuators, and the capacity of the sump to handle the surge volume.

The circulating flow's critical variables are the design of the pump chambers, the location and structure of the diverting screens and filter media, the electronics to control the pump outputs, maintenance of the rear structure, baffle designs, etc...

It's really like having powerheads and return loops.. they don't interfere much with each other.

To be fair, I also have one more system in play and that's the integrated triple output wave box. This is optional, but this is really the tool for "wave" creation and it sits at the head of the reef pointing in all three directions. More on this later, if needed. :)
 
>>> I think it wise to also consider livestock, a wall of pumps running fast will take a lot of getting used to for much of the livestock, but a few dispersed surge outlets are less likely to splat a weak swimming fishy. <<<

We baby our fish and corals too much. Having swam on the reefs, I think the dull slow flow waters in our water cubes are boring and make for weak fish and livestock. I am not a small guy, and I am constantly swept around like a baby in the most plentiful areas of the reefs. I see corals and fish reacting to the flow and actively navigating or growing into the flow.

They can't have a constant barrage of high flow, but the dynamic flow pattern that will occasionally challenge them is valuable to the health of the tank. My fish are getting large (even for an 8' tank) and they use the surge flow to exercise their muscles against the flow. In the normal bucket of water, I think they'll atrophy and die.

I got a very old and large hippo tang a couple of years ago. It had the usual facial pot-marks of an old hippo. I didn't think it was going to make it at the time, but I believe that a more "challenging" environment has actually helped it thrive (IMHO).

Coral skeletons are the same. I've received these little frail sticks and in my tank, they form solid trunks to survive.

It's another philosophy of mine - an easy life makes for a bored and weak population. A healthy life with plentiful resources AND healthy challenges makes for a strong and vibrant population.
 
>>>The outdoor algae scrubber idea is really cool. Evaporation may be a serious consideration, but it sounds like you could use the evaporative cooling anyway.<<<

Yup. That's what I was thinking too. This idea has morphed several times, but with a sunlit reef, it just makes sense to use sunlight to grow the refugium/scrubber.
 
>>>hydro-wizard pumps. Big money, but they push a ton of water and could achieve large flow with just one pump as opposed to so many<<<

Hmmm.. this will drive controversy... but here goes.
I think a lot of this hobby is overpriced with exorbitant margin extracted compared to other industries. I'm sure the vendors see this as fair because the volume is lower and the customers are 'special'.

I don't subscribe to this. I would rather have 40 cheap pumps that will occasionally fail vs. 4 pumps that never fail. This is especially true when the cost (and consumption) ratio is 1:3. Last time I ran the numbers, it would cost be 4x to have the 'big' pumps.

Also, the "array" of smaller pumps allows me to dial in the flow of the water "wall". Think of it as a matrix of flow blocks vs. one big block forced at the center.

The big pump is going to create a circular flow surface with the highest flow at the middle with the corners getting almost nothing due to side shear. This will look like a parabolic flow pattern.

The array of small pumps will create a more complete and square cross-section of flow that loops like a flat wall. That's really what I want to achieve.

Sure, it'll get distorted by the rockscape, but starting with a more uniform cross-section means that there's a greater likelihood of more coral surface being covered by the flow.

AND if I should ever decide that I want a different flow pattern (not a wall), I can digitally dial that in as well by modifying the phase or amplitude of the individual pumps. I can literally "shape" the aperture flow surface. I can go bi-modal or parabolic if I want. I can even create an edge push against the walls with a lower flow in the middle. Having an array of DC controllable pumps is ... the ultimate in watershaping flexibility for me.

For an experimentalist - it's just the opportunity to investigate for years...
 
>>> Oooh ooh one more idea, and this one is kind of off the walls, but i've never seen this done for fishtanks. We used to use these for thrusters on deep sea ROVs because they thrust and don't foul (Rim Driven Thruster). You could just have one LARGE pipe exiting one end of the tank, a large diameter tube running back to the other side, and the thruster in the middle of that tube, and then have it return to the other end of the tank. Fish could safely travel through the chute (i think as long as you left a large enough space between non-aggressive blades) and you would basically have an endless current. Man I kind of want to try it. <<<

Hmmm.. now that's an interesting option. I would still want to create an array (maybe 4 per channel) for watershaping, but the potential of reversible controllable flow are intriguing.

I wonder if they release chemicals over time. I found TSL tech in the UK (University of Southampton sponsored) but no pricing or details on leakage chems.

http://www.tsltechnology.com/marine/thrusters.htm

Also not sure about efficiency. These may consume a lot more power than traditional powerheads. I would need more data to determine their feasibility.

Cost/Flow
Power Consumption/Flow
Control (programmable via Arduino?) or controller (additional cost)
Chemicals/Leakage
Safety

Any one of these can close the book on this, but it is worth digging into. :)

Anyone have more experience here?
 
1164343


I do like the low profile design (large surface, thin cross-section).
 
NeverlosT said:
here's another idea for accomplishing alternating water flow, it would only be back and forth, but you could employ something like this and actuate the pole in a linear fashion up and down, and depending on the volume of the tank, it would force a lot of water out the top and into the bottom, so it would basically flush your loop forward and backward (super simplified sketch just to show idea). Let me know if the pic doesn't work. Could run a gear drive to the shaft and gear it down so a small energy efficient motor could drive the shaft up and down. low energy, move lots of water?

YjH5o8As93_GP4dFFvIdN0QxSsdDkctj19nC0Z0q4wxU2scqXnToG34Ns48GO9aVbWrIMdVUmUlq02_wqgXcb5l7_Ryw2Oq3=w1280-h800-no
Click to expand...

This goes back to the pump vs. plunger discussion. Pumps offer more options and flexibility.
 
I am considering a louvered glass covering to create a shade just over the tank surface 6' x 8' (not the greenhouse glass) to address the need for new coral to acclimate to the light levels under direct light.

Bleaching would be a risk. It's a risk now with my current tank's photoperiod.

Or go wild and let them bleach and then recover.
 
Talking to builders now.

I've always planned for this room to have a sloped floor (like a garage) so any spills run away from the house and down a storm drain around the perimeter or against the large door wall. The builder is refusing to put in a drain in an outside slab that is unfinished.

Any opinions on this?
 
Never- I reached out to TSL. We'll see what they say.

Maybe this will be a new wave in reef flow shaping tech... no pun intended... no, really - because it's not a "wave", it a "flow". :)

I just can't help it sometimes. The geek is so hard to contain.
 
haha I watched a bunch of videos about the radial drive pumps. I found some that are smaller and plastic, still not sure about use in a closed reef environment. Best way to find out might be to buy one, stick it in a bucket of water for a month, then send a water sample to triton and see whats in there.

My main concerns would be that those companies are used to using coatings to prevent biofouling that are amazingly poisonous, so it would be a big question for them as to what they use. But hey, if its stainless steel with sealed bearings or bushings, it could be just the ticket.

The pumps aren't all that complex really. My first thought as I was looking at them was "you know, if ecotech wanted to take the aquarium pump world by storm again, this would be the thing to make". Just make one that is a bit longer with less aggressive blades, and you could have strong flow with little risk to the critters going through the chute.

Maybe I'll mention it to Bill Wann and see what he thinks, he has an eye for the irregular and innovative.

Good luck with the builder! I like the idea more of a trench drain with stainless cover surrounding the tank more than I like the sloped floor. Even a 5 degree slope can be weird when sitting in a chair or heaven forbid a rolling chair.
 
TSL resplied ... they say that their product is completely sealed, so no opportunity for polluting the water. They wanted more design detail, so we're in discussion.

:)

I wasn't thinking of a trench drain around the tank. It was around the greenhouse slab.

Ha ha, no rolling chairs. I really value the ability to export large volumes of water directly to the outside... so the slope is in. :)
 
ok. I've been digesting and formulating for a while now :)

Here's the current view after researching and talking to builders.

First, a couple of critical facts for my location. The sunroom faces south so that it receives light throughout the day in both summer and winter. The back of the sunroom (north face) is against the house to reduce thermal loss (either way). Also, the wind direction in Dallas is always from the south (hence the large open doors facing south).

I'm actually going to go over the sunroom design in detail because I actually think it's more critical than the tank design at this point and I really want more eyes and minds on it...

The sunroom is segregated into two regions, the aquarium room and the living area. The tank lives astride both regions but they are not connected (no openings other than the tank back).

I've added significant options for ventilation and cooling.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsz8qf1y9t.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsz8qf1y9t.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsz8qf1y9t.jpg"/></a>

VENTILATION 1 - I've changed some of the windows in the north area as well as a rooftop vent. The intent is to have these be automated based on sensor data. The intake is the large open front doors (south facing), or the low vents on the bottom sides of the east and west walls (2 visible in the image above).

VENTILATION 2 - I've added a rooftop vent over the aquarium room to improve humidity control.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpswdemopxo.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpswdemopxo.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpswdemopxo.jpg"/></a>

ACCESS - there are four doors. Two doors connect to the house and two doors connect to the east and west sides of the yard. The two house doors lead to the living area (glass doors) and the aquarium room (wood door) separately. I've also extended the concrete and tile beyond the large southern opening.

here's the view from the house side showing the doors.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpsz7uubbl8.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpsz7uubbl8.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpsz7uubbl8.jpg"/></a>

The idea is that this should make it easier to work outside as needed given the small area in the aquarium room.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsgey4duua.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsgey4duua.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsgey4duua.jpg"/></a>

from this view, the left glass door leads into the house, the wood door also leads into the house, and the right most glass door leads to one side of the yard. The walkway to the left wall leads to the fourth door (hidden in this view).

Ok.. now I'm going to hide the tank and it's elements and just look at the structure.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zps0ncomaw6.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zps0ncomaw6.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zps0ncomaw6.jpg"/></a>

The yellow boxes are the electric distribution areas. The red and blue pipes are heat exchangers (more detail later).

removing the floor and walls leaving just the slab and the connections to the buried elements:
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zpsn9d2v3ld.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zpsn9d2v3ld.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zpsn9d2v3ld.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpsybtdrr98.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpsybtdrr98.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpsybtdrr98.jpg"/></a>

PLUMBING: The grey circles in the slab are drains. The three small pipes (red, blue, white) in the bottom right are hot/cold/and drain for the sinks.

AIR HEATING/COOLING: The pink square area under the slab is insulated foam sheets used to insulate the ground under the house to create a thermal battery. The large red pipe to the left and the large blue pipe to the right are 6" PVC pipe intended to circulate air through the air heat exchanger underground (4' down). Hot air is pulled in from the highest sections in the sunroom, pumped through a fan down into the heat exchange piping, and then comes out at the far blue pipe.

WATER HEATING/COOLING: The small red and blue pipes next to the large red pipe are connected to a coldwater tank heat exchanger. Saltwater would flow down these pex and PVC pipes. There's a large manhole opening in the concrete slab that allows access to the large coldwater tank (1000gal) filled with tap water. This is only for extreme circumstances once the tank is filled.

under the slab...

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/7_zpsohvz7g6d.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/7_zpsohvz7g6d.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 7_zpsohvz7g6d.jpg"/></a>

This shows the drains, the plumbing connections, the electrical distribution boxes, the air heat exchanger pipes, the water heat exchanger pipes, the cold water tank and the insulation foam box.
 
Here's the air heat exchanger:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/8_zpseosbaywd.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/8_zpseosbaywd.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8_zpseosbaywd.jpg"/></a>

and here's the water heat exchanger and the cold tank:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/9_zpslu3ttuil.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/9_zpslu3ttuil.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 9_zpslu3ttuil.jpg"/></a>

all feedback (or questions) are welcome :)
 
back in the aquarium room:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/10_zpsbvlttgi8.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/10_zpsbvlttgi8.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 10_zpsbvlttgi8.jpg"/></a>

VENTILATION 2: There are three controllable vents from the house and into the two regions in the sunroom. One connects the HVAC airflow into aquarium room and the other connects the airflow to the living area. These would be closed if the vent fans or windows are open. All controlled by a climate controller.

There are three large 200gal tanks underground to the right of the sunroom. They're in a concrete box built with concrete blocks and insulated foam and covered with foam and decking on a hinge (not sure how to construct this yet).

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/13_zpsczyteg0q.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/13_zpsczyteg0q.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 13_zpsczyteg0q.jpg"/></a>

These containers have pumps that flow up into three buckets high up in the aquarium room with level sensors to keep them full of the appropriate water type. These then gravity feed tubes with valves over the sinks (or are connected to actuators for water changes). This keeps the large tanks outside and underground while providing continuously fed low pressure water at the sink.

The frost line in Dallas is less than a foot down by the way. I think it's only a few inches actually.

Here's the view in the living area.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/12_zpsj0hvllgt.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/12_zpsj0hvllgt.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 12_zpsj0hvllgt.jpg"/></a>

Stepping back, here's the broader view showing the HVAC, the generator, the large ATS (Algae Turf Scrubber) and mangrove garden secondary greenhouse as well as the decking covering the three buried tanks.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/14_zpscru3epr3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/14_zpscru3epr3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 14_zpscru3epr3.jpg"/></a>

Finally, here's a view of the shadows with the fence, neighbor's houses, etc... at 3:00 pm on September 20th.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/15_zpsdhico2co.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/15_zpsdhico2co.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 15_zpsdhico2co.jpg"/></a>
 
Last edited:
I haven't added the dehumidifier plumbing (not sure where to add that), or a potential second room air conditioner unit.

so for cooling:

1. EXTERNAL CHILLER
2. TANK SURFACE FANS
3. HVAC from the house
4. INLET VENTS & ACTUATED WINDOWS/ROOF
5. AQUARIUM ROOM ROOF VENT
6. AIR HEAT EXCHANGER
7. WATER HEAT EXCHANGER IN A COLD WATER TANK
8. INSULATED FOAM UNDERGROUND

for heating, I'm expecting the greenhouse effect + the large thermal mass + thermal batteries underground should be enough. If not, I can add low profile outside heaters suspended on the southern face.

humidity in the winter may still be an issue.. that's why I believe I need to add the dehumidifier. The ventilation with the air exchanger may work to draw in cold air and then warm it underground (inverse thermal balance of the summer scenario).
 
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