sfsuphysics
Active member
Well he still needed to find the house this would all work in first right? 
Karim's 1500gal dream reef
- Thread starter karimwassef
- Start date
McPuff
New member
Well he still needed to find the house this would all work in first right?
Indeed. But I haven't seen him post anywhere which is why I asked. Figured this thread was as good a place as any.
karimwassef
Active member
Thanks for asking.
Work / travel has been more time consuming lately and we're still house hunting (and getting our current house ready to sell).
In the meantime I've had to ignore my current reef which has been both good and bad. I'll find some time to document the learnings there.
Work / travel has been more time consuming lately and we're still house hunting (and getting our current house ready to sell).
In the meantime I've had to ignore my current reef which has been both good and bad. I'll find some time to document the learnings there.
karimwassef
Active member
Thanks.
The good news is that as the house hunting gets more involved, I'm able to import the new house layout and dimensions and line it up to the design in hand.
That yields very strange results ... I found myself asking a builder if the house can be a mirror version to flip the master from the southeast to the northeast side of the house... I doubt anyone has ever asked that question and the blank stare that followed confirmed it.
It was basically to allow the tank room and display rooms to flow out to the southern portion of the backyard.
Wife was not amused. Hahaha
iced98lx
New member
Thanks.
The good news is that as the house hunting gets more involved, I'm able to import the new house layout and dimensions and line it up to the design in hand.
That yields very strange results ... I found myself asking a builder if the house can be a mirror version to flip the master from the southeast to the northeast side of the house... I doubt anyone has ever asked that question and the blank stare that followed confirmed it.
It was basically to allow the tank room and display rooms to flow out to the southern portion of the backyard.
Wife was not amused. Hahaha
Minimal cost for the better setup though!
NeverlosT
A bit fishy
Karim, I like the vision. I'll definitely be following along. My thoughts:
What sort of powerheads are you talking about using that are reversible for the wall of powerheads? Or will you just be shutting some off and others on to achieve flow reversal? It seems that actively reversible units would be much preferable.
I would suggest building a "porthole" into the false floor, and making the false floor out of PVC like some tank bottoms are made. You could be more cavalier with placing structure on it, and if you had a rectangular cutout with a countersunk panel in it, if anything ever went south in the below area, you could just siphon out the sand (you would have the forethought not to cover the porthole with rock) and then lift the lid to access below.
I like the surges, but that is a massive amount of surge. You will have to run the tank with a pretty low water level to keep from flooding during a surge event, since the siphons will take a second to get cracking, unless you taper the surge on and off, which defeats the purpose of a surge a bit. Consider perhaps leaving your drains as is, and making one big-bad emergency drain, that has a large collector, and perhaps two pipes, and when your surges dump, the drains all max out (without having to be adjusted) and the emergency drain just handles the rest. That way you arent constantly adjusting the drains to handle the surge, which sounds like a point of failure.
For cooling, I would consider burying a large caisson in the backyard and filling it with a non-freezable liquid (antifreeze and water?). Then you could circulate that fluid through your sump to cool the system when it is too hot, and possibly circulate that fluid through your air intake to the fish room to cool the room. I am unsure how large a caisson you would need to get you through the summer months, as it would slowly warm, but if you put it deep enough, ground temperature will keep it cool. I think that this is a better method, with a larger heat sink, than just running pipes underground. I have always thought a large subterranean volume would be the best method of geothermal cooling, plus you could just leave it dormant during the Texas winter and fire it up again in summer.
Definitely make that removable section that houses the powerheads beefy with large handles so that you can pull it out without breaking anything. Perhaps consider PVC for the back of the tank and the dividing wall in front of the flow walls? I shudder to think of glass passing by glass when you need to remove that flow segment for maintenance on a regular basis.
With regard to the sunroom, I am not wise in radiated heat and light spectrum, so you are on your own there! Perhaps an automated shade shutter system could activate on the hottest days everywhere except for over the tank?
One thought I had is that the many many pumps you have there for flow is a maintenance nightmare. Is there a better way? Like one massive pump for each quarter (top, bottom, left, right) and it has many outputs? Or just opt for a flapper style wavemaker instead? One feature that is unique about your situation is that you have an open loop (top, down, bottom, back up), so if you put a large paddle in the back, and actuated it up and down in that volume, it would force a LOT of water to cycle either clockwise or counterclockwise. If it had a long enough throw, it might actually make for awesome alternating flow. I just like the idea of a single actuated control surface since it has one system to maintain instead of 40 separate systems.
Honestly I don't think the heating and cooling will be murder. I do think that in the interest of complexity though, it may be wise to either do a large surge, or a large wavemaker, and not both. The permutations of a system with both are many and it seems like a lot of work to have two systems that achieve basically the same thing, chaotic flow at times and smooth flow during others. For example, you could simply use just a surge, have returns on the top facing out, and returns on the bottom facing out, you could actuate just the top ones slowly for standard flow, fast for surge clockwise (out-down-back-up), and then actuate just the bottom ones slowly for reverse standard, and fast for reverse counterclockwise. I think in a manner like this, you could achieve steady laminar flow, fast chaotic flow, and multiple directions, without a ton of pumps (just a few actuated valves).
I think it wise to also consider livestock, a wall of pumps running fast will take a lot of getting used to for much of the livestock, but a few dispersed surge outlets are less likely to splat a weak swimming fishy.
The outdoor algae scrubber idea is really cool. Evaporation may be a serious consideration, but it sounds like you could use the evaporative cooling anyway.
One other thing that comes to mind to close out this novel I've written is the hydro-wizard pumps. Big money, but they push a ton of water and could achieve large flow with just one pump as opposed to so many.
Oooh ooh one more idea, and this one is kind of off the walls, but i've never seen this done for fishtanks. We used to use these for thrusters on deep sea ROVs because they thrust and don't foul (Rim Driven Thruster):
You could just have one LARGE pipe exiting one end of the tank, a large diameter tube running back to the other side, and the thruster in the middle of that tube, and then have it return to the other end of the tank. Fish could safely travel through the chute (i think as long as you left a large enough space between non-aggressive blades) and you would basically have an endless current. Man I kind of want to try it.
What sort of powerheads are you talking about using that are reversible for the wall of powerheads? Or will you just be shutting some off and others on to achieve flow reversal? It seems that actively reversible units would be much preferable.
I would suggest building a "porthole" into the false floor, and making the false floor out of PVC like some tank bottoms are made. You could be more cavalier with placing structure on it, and if you had a rectangular cutout with a countersunk panel in it, if anything ever went south in the below area, you could just siphon out the sand (you would have the forethought not to cover the porthole with rock) and then lift the lid to access below.
I like the surges, but that is a massive amount of surge. You will have to run the tank with a pretty low water level to keep from flooding during a surge event, since the siphons will take a second to get cracking, unless you taper the surge on and off, which defeats the purpose of a surge a bit. Consider perhaps leaving your drains as is, and making one big-bad emergency drain, that has a large collector, and perhaps two pipes, and when your surges dump, the drains all max out (without having to be adjusted) and the emergency drain just handles the rest. That way you arent constantly adjusting the drains to handle the surge, which sounds like a point of failure.
For cooling, I would consider burying a large caisson in the backyard and filling it with a non-freezable liquid (antifreeze and water?). Then you could circulate that fluid through your sump to cool the system when it is too hot, and possibly circulate that fluid through your air intake to the fish room to cool the room. I am unsure how large a caisson you would need to get you through the summer months, as it would slowly warm, but if you put it deep enough, ground temperature will keep it cool. I think that this is a better method, with a larger heat sink, than just running pipes underground. I have always thought a large subterranean volume would be the best method of geothermal cooling, plus you could just leave it dormant during the Texas winter and fire it up again in summer.
Definitely make that removable section that houses the powerheads beefy with large handles so that you can pull it out without breaking anything. Perhaps consider PVC for the back of the tank and the dividing wall in front of the flow walls? I shudder to think of glass passing by glass when you need to remove that flow segment for maintenance on a regular basis.
With regard to the sunroom, I am not wise in radiated heat and light spectrum, so you are on your own there! Perhaps an automated shade shutter system could activate on the hottest days everywhere except for over the tank?
One thought I had is that the many many pumps you have there for flow is a maintenance nightmare. Is there a better way? Like one massive pump for each quarter (top, bottom, left, right) and it has many outputs? Or just opt for a flapper style wavemaker instead? One feature that is unique about your situation is that you have an open loop (top, down, bottom, back up), so if you put a large paddle in the back, and actuated it up and down in that volume, it would force a LOT of water to cycle either clockwise or counterclockwise. If it had a long enough throw, it might actually make for awesome alternating flow. I just like the idea of a single actuated control surface since it has one system to maintain instead of 40 separate systems.
Honestly I don't think the heating and cooling will be murder. I do think that in the interest of complexity though, it may be wise to either do a large surge, or a large wavemaker, and not both. The permutations of a system with both are many and it seems like a lot of work to have two systems that achieve basically the same thing, chaotic flow at times and smooth flow during others. For example, you could simply use just a surge, have returns on the top facing out, and returns on the bottom facing out, you could actuate just the top ones slowly for standard flow, fast for surge clockwise (out-down-back-up), and then actuate just the bottom ones slowly for reverse standard, and fast for reverse counterclockwise. I think in a manner like this, you could achieve steady laminar flow, fast chaotic flow, and multiple directions, without a ton of pumps (just a few actuated valves).
I think it wise to also consider livestock, a wall of pumps running fast will take a lot of getting used to for much of the livestock, but a few dispersed surge outlets are less likely to splat a weak swimming fishy.
The outdoor algae scrubber idea is really cool. Evaporation may be a serious consideration, but it sounds like you could use the evaporative cooling anyway.
One other thing that comes to mind to close out this novel I've written is the hydro-wizard pumps. Big money, but they push a ton of water and could achieve large flow with just one pump as opposed to so many.
Oooh ooh one more idea, and this one is kind of off the walls, but i've never seen this done for fishtanks. We used to use these for thrusters on deep sea ROVs because they thrust and don't foul (Rim Driven Thruster):
You could just have one LARGE pipe exiting one end of the tank, a large diameter tube running back to the other side, and the thruster in the middle of that tube, and then have it return to the other end of the tank. Fish could safely travel through the chute (i think as long as you left a large enough space between non-aggressive blades) and you would basically have an endless current. Man I kind of want to try it.
NeverlosT
A bit fishy
here's another idea for accomplishing alternating water flow, it would only be back and forth, but you could employ something like this and actuate the pole in a linear fashion up and down, and depending on the volume of the tank, it would force a lot of water out the top and into the bottom, so it would basically flush your loop forward and backward (super simplified sketch just to show idea). Let me know if the pic doesn't work. Could run a gear drive to the shaft and gear it down so a small energy efficient motor could drive the shaft up and down. low energy, move lots of water?
karimwassef
Active member
Wow NeverLost... lots to think on and respond.
Let me share these two links about flow and light first
Current Loop Flow Thread -
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2519480&page=28
High Solar Gain Greenhouse Thread -
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2537919
I'll reply in more detail in a bit
Let me share these two links about flow and light first
Current Loop Flow Thread -
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2519480&page=28
High Solar Gain Greenhouse Thread -
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2537919
I'll reply in more detail in a bit
karimwassef
Active member
>What sort of powerheads are you talking about using that are reversible for the wall of powerheads? Or will you just be shutting some off and others on to achieve flow reversal? It seems that actively reversible units would be much preferable.
I started with the intent of using reversible powerheads but came to the conclusion that they're either too expensive, too large or just don't exist with controllable flow.
Instead, I'm using the four channels with a common chamber in the back so that forced flow through one channels forces an effective reversal of flow in the other channels (circulation flow). The plan is to use inexpensive jebao pumps that can we DC controlled by an Arduino and Apex. I've found these to be relatively good value compared to their throughput and life. Making the "cages" accessible for quarterly maintenance will be key.
I started with the intent of using reversible powerheads but came to the conclusion that they're either too expensive, too large or just don't exist with controllable flow.
Instead, I'm using the four channels with a common chamber in the back so that forced flow through one channels forces an effective reversal of flow in the other channels (circulation flow). The plan is to use inexpensive jebao pumps that can we DC controlled by an Arduino and Apex. I've found these to be relatively good value compared to their throughput and life. Making the "cages" accessible for quarterly maintenance will be key.
karimwassef
Active member
>I would suggest building a "porthole" into the false floor, and making the false floor out of PVC like some tank bottoms are made. You could be more cavalier with placing structure on it, and if you had a rectangular cutout with a countersunk panel in it, if anything ever went south in the below area, you could just siphon out the sand (you would have the forethought not to cover the porthole with rock) and then lift the lid to access below.
I had originally envisioned the tank as an L dropoff design with only two channels on the top. I'm really interested in a shallow reef with a subsection for deeper coral. This morphed into the full tank with a false floor and four channels as I considered the relative cost of the thicker glass needed for the L walls vs just a full tank. I was also curious about the concept of a "dark reef".
I plan to use the false floor as a mid-depth brace for the tank. The idea is that this will extend nearly the full length of the tank and provide structural support - potentially reducing the glass thickness needed (and cost too). It could be made of PVC if the bonding and structural benefits are achievable. The porthole would give me access to the dark reef but only in the zone immediately under it. I would need two portholes, one for each of the channels (at least). With a 6ft span, this would need to be a very large porthole to be effective.
When covered with sand and concrete...
But the suggestion is good. Maybe I'll look at making 6 2ft x 2ft portholes (3 over each channel) with thick sealed lids that inset into the false floor. I'll need to run some analysis to make sure the portholes don't compromise the integrity of the bracing desired.
I had originally envisioned the tank as an L dropoff design with only two channels on the top. I'm really interested in a shallow reef with a subsection for deeper coral. This morphed into the full tank with a false floor and four channels as I considered the relative cost of the thicker glass needed for the L walls vs just a full tank. I was also curious about the concept of a "dark reef".
I plan to use the false floor as a mid-depth brace for the tank. The idea is that this will extend nearly the full length of the tank and provide structural support - potentially reducing the glass thickness needed (and cost too). It could be made of PVC if the bonding and structural benefits are achievable. The porthole would give me access to the dark reef but only in the zone immediately under it. I would need two portholes, one for each of the channels (at least). With a 6ft span, this would need to be a very large porthole to be effective.
When covered with sand and concrete...
But the suggestion is good. Maybe I'll look at making 6 2ft x 2ft portholes (3 over each channel) with thick sealed lids that inset into the false floor. I'll need to run some analysis to make sure the portholes don't compromise the integrity of the bracing desired.
karimwassef
Active member
>I like the surges, but that is a massive amount of surge. You will have to run the tank with a pretty low water level to keep from flooding during a surge event, since the siphons will take a second to get cracking, unless you taper the surge on and off, which defeats the purpose of a surge a bit. Consider perhaps leaving your drains as is, and making one big-bad emergency drain, that has a large collector, and perhaps two pipes, and when your surges dump, the drains all max out (without having to be adjusted) and the emergency drain just handles the rest. That way you arent constantly adjusting the drains to handle the surge, which sounds like a point of failure.
I have a 40gal surge now on my 380gal through 2 x 2" PVC. The surface is 8' x 32" and the surge pushes the water level up by 3" before the 4 x 2" siphons kick in. I spent a lot of time making sure that this part works... the failure was in the sump. The overflow section was only 2' x 2' x 2' so the 40gal quickly overwhelmed it in case of a power outtage... and the little margin in the rest of the sump was consumed and it caused a flood - thank goodness this is all in my garage.
I had to add a secondary 100gal overflow sump that morphed into a water change chamber too (I use every bit of the buffalo).
The learning is that 4 PVC siphons will be able to handle 2 PVC surges of the same size... but the tank has to be large enough in surface area... and the sump has to be big enough to handle all the surge.
So- the new tank is 8' x 6' in surface. The surge would need to be over 60 gal to give 2" of extra height. With the 3" margin, it can handle 90 gal. I designed the sump with a 4' x 4' overflow chamber and a dedicated water change section that doubles as an emergency overflow. (History in reverse)
I have a 40gal surge now on my 380gal through 2 x 2" PVC. The surface is 8' x 32" and the surge pushes the water level up by 3" before the 4 x 2" siphons kick in. I spent a lot of time making sure that this part works... the failure was in the sump. The overflow section was only 2' x 2' x 2' so the 40gal quickly overwhelmed it in case of a power outtage... and the little margin in the rest of the sump was consumed and it caused a flood - thank goodness this is all in my garage.
I had to add a secondary 100gal overflow sump that morphed into a water change chamber too (I use every bit of the buffalo).
The learning is that 4 PVC siphons will be able to handle 2 PVC surges of the same size... but the tank has to be large enough in surface area... and the sump has to be big enough to handle all the surge.
So- the new tank is 8' x 6' in surface. The surge would need to be over 60 gal to give 2" of extra height. With the 3" margin, it can handle 90 gal. I designed the sump with a 4' x 4' overflow chamber and a dedicated water change section that doubles as an emergency overflow. (History in reverse)
karimwassef
Active member
There are two open drains, one controlled drain and one overflow. Just before the surge, the controlled siphon drain should open prepping it to accommodate the surge. The intent here is to reduce noise and bubbles, not just capture the flow. The emergency kicks in if the water height gets close to the margin.
In full surge, there will be 4 x 2" siphons open and 2 x 2" surges.
There is the normal flow too but since those are also running from the same surge tank source, I can shut them down to modulate.
In full surge, there will be 4 x 2" siphons open and 2 x 2" surges.
There is the normal flow too but since those are also running from the same surge tank source, I can shut them down to modulate.
karimwassef
Active member
> For cooling, I would consider burying a large caisson in the backyard and filling it with a non-freezable liquid (antifreeze and water?). Then you could circulate that fluid through your sump to cool the system when it is too hot, and possibly circulate that fluid through your air intake to the fish room to cool the room. I am unsure how large a caisson you would need to get you through the summer months, as it would slowly warm, but if you put it deep enough, ground temperature will keep it cool. I think that this is a better method, with a larger heat sink, than just running pipes underground. I have always thought a large subterranean volume would be the best method of geothermal cooling, plus you could just leave it dormant during the Texas winter and fire it up again in summer.
I honestly don't know anything about caissons or how they compare to titanium tubes underground. I would think that it needs to be at the watertable to have any effect? I'm a DIYer so I'd need to learn more before any $$$ come flying out of my tightwad wallet.
How expensive is it to buy? Make? Installation cost? Maintenance? Risk?
The most cost effective method should be a large evaporative cooler with circulating water but my wife says that it would impact property values and be noisy... grimace!
I honestly don't know anything about caissons or how they compare to titanium tubes underground. I would think that it needs to be at the watertable to have any effect? I'm a DIYer so I'd need to learn more before any $$$ come flying out of my tightwad wallet.
How expensive is it to buy? Make? Installation cost? Maintenance? Risk?
The most cost effective method should be a large evaporative cooler with circulating water but my wife says that it would impact property values and be noisy... grimace!
karimwassef
Active member
> Definitely make that removable section that houses the powerheads beefy with large handles so that you can pull it out without breaking anything. Perhaps consider PVC for the back of the tank and the dividing wall in front of the flow walls? I shudder to think of glass passing by glass when you need to remove that flow segment for maintenance on a regular basis.
The powerhead sections are all PVC. Glass was too heavy.
Using plastic for the separator walls is interesting. I was thinking of concrete blocks with the special drywall used for showers.
The powerhead sections are all PVC. Glass was too heavy.
Using plastic for the separator walls is interesting. I was thinking of concrete blocks with the special drywall used for showers.
karimwassef
Active member
> One thought I had is that the many many pumps you have there for flow is a maintenance nightmare. Is there a better way? Like one massive pump for each quarter (top, bottom, left, right) and it has many outputs? Or just opt for a flapper style wavemaker instead? One feature that is unique about your situation is that you have an open loop (top, down, bottom, back up), so if you put a large paddle in the back, and actuated it up and down in that volume, it would force a LOT of water to cycle either clockwise or counterclockwise. If it had a long enough throw, it might actually make for awesome alternating flow. I just like the idea of a single actuated control surface since it has one system to maintain instead of 40 separate systems.
Fewer points of failure would be great!! But I couldn't find a DC pump large enough in cross-section to create a relatively uniform flow of water through the square channel apertures. If I did, I expect it would be expensive!! The multiple cheap powerheads are a pain but they actually prove a level of redundancy too... if one or two fail, life goes on. If one big fan fails!!! So, the big powerhead/fan would need to be very dependable!
On the topic or flappers vs. plungers vs. pumps.... the flow thread digs into it all. My conclusion is that all mechanical flow injectors are limited by their physical size... how long they can push flow, how fast, how they ramp up and down... all a strong function of preset mechanical constraints. Programmable DC pumps, on the other hand, allow for simulating any length or range of flow. I can just write code and see what happens... the flexibility wins.
Fewer points of failure would be great!! But I couldn't find a DC pump large enough in cross-section to create a relatively uniform flow of water through the square channel apertures. If I did, I expect it would be expensive!! The multiple cheap powerheads are a pain but they actually prove a level of redundancy too... if one or two fail, life goes on. If one big fan fails!!! So, the big powerhead/fan would need to be very dependable!
On the topic or flappers vs. plungers vs. pumps.... the flow thread digs into it all. My conclusion is that all mechanical flow injectors are limited by their physical size... how long they can push flow, how fast, how they ramp up and down... all a strong function of preset mechanical constraints. Programmable DC pumps, on the other hand, allow for simulating any length or range of flow. I can just write code and see what happens... the flexibility wins.
NeverlosT
A bit fishy
Great responses, the only one I will comment on tonight is the cooling. A large buried water volume has a much larger thermal mass than your pipes and a high surface area to the surrounding ground (which transmits heat rather well). So a massive volume, and a huge heat sink (the ground) allows you to circulate that cool brine (or antifreeze mix) through a heat exchanger or your sump. The catch I believe is that it would probably have to be a reservoir bigger than or as big as the tank, which in your case maaay be tough.
Caisson was probably the wrong word technically, I was just trying to think of a word describing a buried watertight cavity.
They make big agricultural water storage containers that can be buried. It just seems less trouble than evaporative cooling which is going to make you need tons of top off and will vary with humidity.
Buuuut then again I've never heard of anyone cooling a tank in this fashion, so maybe it is a terrible idea!
Caisson was probably the wrong word technically, I was just trying to think of a word describing a buried watertight cavity.
They make big agricultural water storage containers that can be buried. It just seems less trouble than evaporative cooling which is going to make you need tons of top off and will vary with humidity.
Buuuut then again I've never heard of anyone cooling a tank in this fashion, so maybe it is a terrible idea!
karimwassef
Active member
I was on a flight to China so my responses got interrupted. Not done be with your first comments
The underwater cooling mass is interesting. Need to run some math - I think it may work in the early spring but summer in TX under 105F surface, I don't know how cool the underground would be without shade or evaporation.
The underwater cooling mass is interesting. Need to run some math - I think it may work in the early spring but summer in TX under 105F surface, I don't know how cool the underground would be without shade or evaporation.
McPuff
New member
If you buried the cistern/caisson more than 4 feet it should remain quite stable, even in the hot Texas summer. If you can go deeper, it will be even more stable. If you get to the groundwater, then you can estimate (quite closely) the temperature which would approximate the average annual air temp for your region.
Even if you buried the titanium pipes, you'd have to get to the same depth to achieve some type of efficiency. The caisson would be much easier to install and would also function more efficiently. Just have to figure out how big it needs to be.
Even if you buried the titanium pipes, you'd have to get to the same depth to achieve some type of efficiency. The caisson would be much easier to install and would also function more efficiently. Just have to figure out how big it needs to be.
karimwassef
Active member
Only 600gal is exposed to radiated heat (sunlight). The rest is the dark reef (700gal) and the sump/surge is the remainder. I wonder what that means for the thermal influx vs temperature change...
The surface area is 6' x 8' .... not sure how to calculate the radiated heat influx for 8hrs. Add to that the average temperature of the greenhouse and evaporative cooling from the surface.
Maybe a high surface area evaporative cooling surface in a shadowed part of the backyard?
The thermal mass idea is good, but I wonder if it's enough.
The truth is that I don't have a mathematical model that includes all these variables -
The surface area is 6' x 8' .... not sure how to calculate the radiated heat influx for 8hrs. Add to that the average temperature of the greenhouse and evaporative cooling from the surface.
Maybe a high surface area evaporative cooling surface in a shadowed part of the backyard?
The thermal mass idea is good, but I wonder if it's enough.
The truth is that I don't have a mathematical model that includes all these variables -
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