Karim's 1500gal dream reef

I love all of your technical and creative solutions, but wouldn't a Carlson Surge Device be so much simpler and consistent? There's no way a heavy duty shopvac will be more durable long term than a maxijet pumping a constant quantity of water into a reservoir.

I guess if you want inconsistent specific timed intervals, a maxijet wouldn't be as reliable as I'm thinking, with hard power-on/off cycles, but even then, I imagine it's still more reliable than a shop vac. Maybe I should have more faith in the almighty shop vac?
 
actually, Carlson surge is a bubble machine. I'm not a fan. The key is high flow across a broad swath of water (not pipe output) without mechanical shear and without bubbles.

I've had more maxijets fail on me that shopvacs, but we'll need more data first.

Workshops that actually run them hard do support their reliability claims. The reality is that testing is the only way to know for sure unless we get field quality data.
 
I realize that I jumped out in a different direction here, so it deserves some time for reflection.

I have some key beliefs/philosophies that drove this:

1. High sheer devices in water destroys life: This means that pumps, impellers, etc... are all killers of plankton that includes the next generation of life. Any system that can remove pumps from the system without compromising the necessary flow type and impact is good.

2. All flow is not the same: This means that water shooting out of a round pipe constantly is death to everything in its path. We've worked out ways to overcome this with gradual flow changes, pulsing, diverters, rotating heads, etc... but the best solution is to create a large body of water moving through the system as a whole. Think of it as a slug of water that's rectangular in shape and flows in a loop around the tank and then flows back the other way. This is what nature feels like.

2b. Waves don't do it since they're primarily vertical motion with some forward motion. Standing waves are even worse. If the primary purpose of flow is to aid in waste/particulate/detritus removal, parasite removal, bring food in, and help with aeration, then waves are optically pretty but don't achieve those goals. Water needs to physically move forward and backwards like inhaling/exhaling.

3. Bubbles can be bad. This isn't just about viewing pleasure. Small bubbles refract light away from coral and can get trapped creating zones of death as they build up. So, flow is great, but bubbles can become a nuisance if not removed by design. Methods to reduce bubbles are relatively weak.

4. No mechanical restrictions. While keeping crabs and snails out of devices can be a pain, mechanical filtration creates significant maintenance hassle and/or waste creation. Being able to move water without restrictions or filter blocks resolves a significant pain point for jammed and clogged waterways. The mechanical filters either remove food or plankton - both are valuable to retain. The culprits are inorganics that flow freely through mechanical filters. That's why I don't even have a scrubber on this latest design.

5. Recycling is key. I've been using a closed loop food system for about a year now where I use a scrubber to create food (algae + inhabitants in algae) and then feed that to my fish, whose waste is consumed by coral or decomposed by worms and pods into smaller organics that can feed sponges, etc... the inorganics go back into feeding the algae scrubber.. etc... This removes the need to export. It's still good to remove some occasionally, but the majority of the food cycle should be self contained and driven by sunlight.

All these elements combined to drive me to consider an alternate path that is self-cleaning, lower maintenance and supporting more life. There are a couple of penalties or obstacles:

1. Noise. I plan to put the vacuums in a separate externally vented space that is noise insulated, but I have no idea how well this will work.

2. Reliability. Again, no data. Salty humid air is like an acid that destroys all it touches. This may mean a more aggressive replacement/maintenance schedule or it could break the system completely. As mentioned above, intermittent operation can be a pain.

3. Structure. My first experiments show that a vacuum can be very powerful and building "implosion-proof" structures is not as simple as I originally thought. I think ribbing will work well, but unproven. I also don't know enough about air seals vs. water seals.

4. Incomplete current flow loop. In my original design with powerheads sharing a common volume in the back, the water actually would flow in a loop through the tank. This wasn't proven yet, especially given the 10ft of forward flow and the inability to reverse the pumps on the opposite side. But I think it would work. This current design simulates loop flow, but in reality, it's really operating as a surge/countersurge pushing and pulling that feels like a current loop oscillating. I don't know if this will matter.

I'm building some experiments now to try and prove this out and will build a 1/3 scale model first before taking on the real system.
 
here's where I am (summarized from another thread):

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CB854D3D-BA1F-4C51-893A-A6A0F58D4E07_zpsgh01zvly.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CB854D3D-BA1F-4C51-893A-A6A0F58D4E07_zpsgh01zvly.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CB854D3D-BA1F-4C51-893A-A6A0F58D4E07_zpsgh01zvly.jpg"></a>

There's a 1" x 12" slot at the bottom for the surge to flow out of

Stronger skeleton

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/A7695CAE-B1EC-4A22-9D65-48B51640B999_zpsrusokru9.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/A7695CAE-B1EC-4A22-9D65-48B51640B999_zpsrusokru9.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo A7695CAE-B1EC-4A22-9D65-48B51640B999_zpsrusokru9.jpg"></a>

And the system with actuators. These aren't perfectly airtight so the vacuum will need to come on intermittently to compensate until I have something better.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/B5062018-4608-4C6C-9E93-01ADDEEDE3CD_zpsazxudyat.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/B5062018-4608-4C6C-9E93-01ADDEEDE3CD_zpsazxudyat.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo B5062018-4608-4C6C-9E93-01ADDEEDE3CD_zpsazxudyat.jpg"></a>

The concept is actually to couple multiple chambers to create multi-surge circulating flow effects

Here's some more detail on the design concept.

I've chosen a vacuum and modeled its suction based on what I can find online (not a perfect model)

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpsibykudka.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpsibykudka.png" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpsibykudka.png"/></a>

based on that and a 2' x 2' x 8' chamber, I modeled the fill rate based on the flow.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpszlqzqgui.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpszlqzqgui.png" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpszlqzqgui.png"/></a>

So, even 1.5 mins, I expect the chamber to fill with about 120 gals that can surge through the tank. I plan on having 4 of these tanks with two more higher flow surges.

The double surge/circulating flow comes in by coupling the air tanks

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsxaa0fmfg.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsxaa0fmfg.png" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsxaa0fmfg.png"/></a>

The idea is to allow the tanks to share air and create suction back up in the "empty" tank while the full tank releases. This is to make sure the reverse flow is as strong as the forward flow.

Then I alternate suction to the other tank and repeat to create a large volume flow back and forth that rocks the entire reef (without rough pipe outlets or pumps)
 
I'm also creating two surge/scrubbers that pull water up into vertical tanks that are sunlit. These are intended to grow algae out of the tank, but still allow herbivore fish controlled access to the algae on demand.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsr59a5zqj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsr59a5zqj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsr59a5zqj.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsteccflu4.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsteccflu4.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsteccflu4.jpg"/></a>

This basically creates a closed loop of food without having the waste accumulate in the container since the surge would realease it back into the tank (yes intentional).

So, it's a surge/scrubber/feeder that is both wet and dry and sunlit. :)

here are a few more design views. I expanded the chambers to be 2' x 2' x 8' here... still works just takes a lot more space.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsijcpejsq.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsijcpejsq.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsijcpejsq.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpsj8pee5nt.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpsj8pee5nt.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpsj8pee5nt.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zps9s7kdobv.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zps9s7kdobv.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zps9s7kdobv.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zps1ljnpi6j.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zps1ljnpi6j.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zps1ljnpi6j.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zpsuneeh7nk.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zpsuneeh7nk.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zpsuneeh7nk.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpsefi6sylt.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpsefi6sylt.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpsefi6sylt.jpg"/></a>

models are included for scaling. :)
 
next set of experiments

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/IMG_0503_zpswurgwmj8.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/IMG_0503_zpswurgwmj8.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0503_zpswurgwmj8.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/IMG_0506_zpsfkhpwwqb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/IMG_0506_zpsfkhpwwqb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0506_zpsfkhpwwqb.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/IMG_0507_zpsyeiyscxl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/IMG_0507_zpsyeiyscxl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0507_zpsyeiyscxl.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/IMG_0509_zpszhtogmck.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/IMG_0509_zpszhtogmck.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0509_zpszhtogmck.jpg"/></a>

I'll post a video in a little bit.

Here's the conclusion. Coupling the tanks works to create a reverse surge that pulls water up one tank as it flows down and out the other. But as expected, it's slower (lower flow) than a regular surge. I'll use the videos to collect some data. The design still needs 4 inches / sec flow, so this may or may not work.

Also, the inertia of the slower up/down flow is so large that there's little to no overshoot, so no oscillation either.
 
ReefWreak said:
I love all of your technical and creative solutions, but wouldn't a Carlson Surge Device be so much simpler and consistent? There's no way a heavy duty shopvac will be more durable long term than a maxijet pumping a constant quantity of water into a reservoir.

I guess if you want inconsistent specific timed intervals, a maxijet wouldn't be as reliable as I'm thinking, with hard power-on/off cycles, but even then, I imagine it's still more reliable than a shop vac. Maybe I should have more faith in the almighty shop vac?
Click to expand...

While not quite on the scale of years you get from a submersible pump, but we actually have a couple shop vacs (from the hardware store) that run in 8-24 hour stints where I work. It's been a bit under a year since they were put in (as a temporary thing they said), but they're still ticking along. As long as they have airflow they are surprisingly durable. Now, shut off the inlet so they have no cooling air going through them and yes, they burn out fast.
 
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/18ZsggRjOPI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Data:

Pulling vacuum to fill tank 1 = 2.2s (TANK LEVEL -> FULL)
Releasing tank 1 to air (surge) = 1.4s (FULL -> TANK LEVEL)
Releasing tank 1 to tank 2 (surge + countersurge) to half = 2.8s (FULL + TANK LEVEL -> HALF x 2)
Releasing both tanks to air (double surge @ half) = 1.4s (HALF x 2 -> TANK LEVEL x 2)
Double tank vacuum fill = 2.8s (TANK LEVEL x 2 -> FULL x 2)
Double tank release to air = 1.4 s (FULL x 2 -> TANK LEVEL x 2)

The surge containers are 47QT (10.63 x 18.12 x 23.78 in officially)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00186O0MO

but really, they're 22" x 15" x 8" ~ 11gals.

The water level in the bottom tank starts out at 8.5" and the tank is 14.5" x 33" x 12" high. So it held ~ 18 gals. That's why is almost basically ran out when I tried pulling both tanks.

I'll need to work out the flow rates next.
 
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpss3vp23sx.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpss3vp23sx.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpss3vp23sx.jpg"/></a>

This is all approximate since measuring fractions of seconds and fractions of gallons is hard to do... but still may be useful. The double surge is less than the single because the water couldn't be raised to the same level (ran out of water in base).

As a first approximation, it looks like the dual surge/countersurge is ~40% of the flow of a normal surge.
 
"I'm also creating two surge/scrubbers that pull water up into vertical tanks that are sunlit. These are intended to grow algae out of the tank, but still allow herbivore fish controlled access to the algae on demand."

Can you explain this a bit more? Are the fish going into the vertical surge tanks? I guess I can't tell how water is flowing through all of the tanks in your system.
 
Yes. The openings are 4" x 42" and submerged. There are two scrubber chambers.

The fish can swim up into the chambers to feed and I can control their access by purging the vertical containers.

Basically, this is my lazy solution to creating a "grazing grounds" where I can control access without physically being there.

I'm still considering whether to make it a conventional waterfall scrubber that I can flood to feed, or an updraft bubble scrubber where it's usually full of water with air bubbles allowing algae to grow preferentially. I talked through it in the scrubber forums too.

In the case of an updraft skimmer, the bubbles act as a barrier curtain to keep the fish out while the algae grows. And I still have the option to purge.

The third (more aggressive) approach is to use the surge as the algae growing mechanism. This would actually be simplest (so might try it first). The idea is that my filling and purging, the media is exposed to water and air to act as a scrubber without needing a dedicated source of either water or air. The old original scrubbers were all classic surges (like Carlson) but algae like bubbles so it was a good fit back then.

I've seen inverted tanks where fish swim up before so that idea isn't new. But using it to create an algae farm with controlled access is (as far as I've seen). Most inverted tanks are permanently filled.

Having the tanks empty regularly also limits bacteria from taking over.

Ok... I also do think it's cool to have the fish swim up a vertical wall for feeding time... it's like a whole second tank that uses the sunlight that would be wasted against the wall.

Combined with the dropoff on the other end and the dark zone under the false floor, it would have four separate reef sections...

The shallow coral reef
The deep dropoff reef (ok, it's only a foot deeper but that counts :) )
The dark caverns (sponges, no big fish access)
The algae meadows (vertical scrubber surge)

The penalty of these raised tanks is that my sump had to double in size to accommodate all that water in case of a total shutdown. It's more like an internal kiddie pool.
 
karimwassef said:
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpss3vp23sx.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpss3vp23sx.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpss3vp23sx.jpg"/></a>

This is all approximate since measuring fractions of seconds and fractions of gallons is hard to do... but still may be useful. The double surge is less than the single because the water couldn't be raised to the same level (ran out of water in base).

As a first approximation, it looks like the dual surge/countersurge is ~40% of the flow of a normal surge.
Click to expand...

Another observation is that my assumption that the water flow up and down in the vacuum chambers doesn't really replicate a full loop of current. That's not because the two flows don't connect. It's actually because the speed of the water flowing from one side to the other isn't sufficient to connect the two flows.

Basically the downflow and upflow are in the same direction in the bottom tank, but they occur at different times for a given location. So, a coral would basically feel two separate tugs on it. First from the closer chamber, and then a few seconds later from flow by the other chamber. The flows don't meet in the same place at the same time except right in the middle. This isn't bad, but not exactly what I was hoping for (but obvious now if I had just written out the equation for each side and calculated the flow rate).

I don't know if it's fixable but making the openings larger might improve things. Still need a model to improve the design.
 
McPuff said:
"I'm also creating two surge/scrubbers that pull water up into vertical tanks that are sunlit. These are intended to grow algae out of the tank, but still allow herbivore fish controlled access to the algae on demand."

Can you explain this a bit more? Are the fish going into the vertical surge tanks? I guess I can't tell how water is flowing through all of the tanks in your system.
Click to expand...

To be clearer. There are 6 new raised vacuum chambers (apart from the original surge that I'm just using as an air break).

Two of them are against the wall behind the tank = surge/scrubber/feeder
Four are connected to the four channels in the tank that were previously powered by powerheads. These are intended to create the cross-flow circulating loops through the tank.
All 6 are separate and draw/release into the DT directly. They are separate from the sump/air break tank loop.

Does that help?
 
As a next step... I think I need a larger base where the vacuum tank volumes aren't a large fraction of. Having the base level drop so significantly makes this more complex.

Also would be interesting to add buckets at a higher level to allow more volume to capture more data.
 
So.. trying to increase the forward and reverse flow...

First, this is a better view of the original concept:
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zps1fi8iisw.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zps1fi8iisw.png" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zps1fi8iisw.png"/></a>

So, I expanded the tanks down to the bottom of the tank level. By itself, this doesn't do much:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zps8hh6eymz.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zps8hh6eymz.png" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zps8hh6eymz.png"/></a>

But if I use the output of the vacuum (blower side) to pressurize the second tank:
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zpsijxpbg7f.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zpsijxpbg7f.png" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsijxpbg7f.png"/></a>

I don't know if this will actually work. But I'll run some tests to see.
 
if it works, the design would change again:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpsu05r98cw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpsu05r98cw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsu05r98cw.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zpsrwtapstm.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zpsrwtapstm.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsrwtapstm.jpg"/></a>
 
Different discussion direction-

I had always intended for the dark zone to be blocked by layers of eggcrate so most fish can't access the space. This is intended to create a safe zone for small inverts and pods to thrive and reproduce in the dark.

I've had other points of view presented that oppose this view: The "restricted dark zone" is 700gals of potential sleeping/hiding areas that would help minimize the aggression and potentially increase the viable population of fish the reef can support. The darkness would limit predation so opening it up wouldn't impact the benefit of the safe zone.

I'm frankly torn between the two concepts, so I thought I'd open it to the community.

Option 1. Restricted safe zone (eggcrate opening only).
Option 2. Open to all - hiding and sleeping quarters.
Option 3. Eggcrate bars halfway into the dark zone.

Please let me know what you think.
 
Also, I would like to maintain a population of wrasse as well as a breeding population (several thousand) of ghost shrimp. The safe zone feels necessary.
 
karimwassef said:
Option 1. Restricted safe zone (eggcrate opening only).
Option 2. Open to all - hiding and sleeping quarters.
Option 3. Eggcrate bars halfway into the dark zone.

Please let me know what you think.
Click to expand...

I like option 3 on this one. Gives limited space for the fish to run to if necessary while leaving room for beneficial critters to reproduce and hide.
 
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