Keeping SPS is soooo hard and expensive! Thinking about quitting after 2 years.

[IUfan]

Carbon dosing has been associated with RTN in sensitive corals. Do you use a lot of pellets?



Rapid changes in the phosphate level can harm some corals also. When you change GFO does the phosphate level change quickly?

+1

I had a similar issue, would be all good and then would suddenly either have browning or bleaching occur.

I believe Po4 and light intensity have a direct correlation to one and other. Higher Po4 requires higher light, lower po4 less light.

At the end of the GFO life your light intensity may be perfect for the level of Po4 then you renew the GFO, it sucks out all the Po4 and light is too strong, corals bleach.

I had this occur, so then I would try less light, only to have the corals brown at the end of the GFO light. So then I increased light back up, and bleaching occurred.

Conclusion is: I stopped using GFO, let Po4 creep up to 0.1 and run my lights at a higher intensity. Params stay more stable. And tank has never looked healthier. SPS are growing like weeds with great color and PE. = happy reefing.

 

[PhaneSoul]

+1

I had a similar issue, would be all good and then would suddenly either have browning or bleaching occur.

I believe Po4 and light intensity have a direct correlation to one and other. Higher Po4 requires higher light, lower po4 less light.

At the end of the GFO life your light intensity may be perfect for the level of Po4 then you renew the GFO, it sucks out all the Po4 and light is too strong, corals bleach.

I had this occur, so then I would try less light, only to have the corals brown at the end of the GFO light. So then I increased light back up, and bleaching occurred.

Conclusion is: I stopped using GFO, let Po4 creep up to 0.1 and run my lights at a higher intensity. Params stay more stable. And tank has never looked healthier. SPS are growing like weeds with great color and PE. = happy reefing.

Why do you think this happened?

 

[kurfer]

Well, I broke my protein skimmer last night in a cleaning accident.

Will have to wait a week or so for a new one to arrive. We'll see how this goes running skimmerless for a week!

 

[GroktheCube]

I've only skimmed this thread (no pun about your unfortunate mishap intended!), but have you verified the accuracy of your test kits? RSCP should have MUCH higher than 9 dkh alk, so seeing you report that number makes me suspicious of your alk kit. I might try mixing some up in a small amount of water by weight, or using some baking soda to make an alk solution of known concentration to double check the kit.

As far as fixes, I'd start with those that are cheap, simple, and unlikely to backfire first.

More WCs and detritus removal are very unlikely to hurt anything. Checking to make sure the carbon in your RO/DI is removing all chlorine (by checking waste water) is probably also a good idea. My water company recently switched to chloramines, and started with a bang. Toasted my RO membranes REAL quick, as I was only using "normal" carbon that is only mediocre at removing sane concentrations of chloramine, forget about levels so high that water coming out of the tap smells like bleach.

 

[IUfan]

Why do you think this happened?

Which part?

 

[PhaneSoul]

Which part?

I had this occur, so then I would try less light, only to have the corals brown at the end of the GFO light. So then I increased light back up, and bleaching occurred.

Conclusion is: I stopped using GFO, let Po4 creep up to 0.1 and run my lights at a higher intensity. Params stay more stable. And tank has never looked healthier. SPS are growing like weeds with great color and PE. = happy reefing.



That part

 

[Reefin' Dude]

+1

I had a similar issue, would be all good and then would suddenly either have browning or bleaching occur.

I believe Po4 and light intensity have a direct correlation to one and other. Higher Po4 requires higher light, lower po4 less light.

that is correct. the higher the light the more light blocking proteins the coral will produce to keep the zoax from overproducing O2. though, if all is balanced, then very little light is necessary to support corals. photosynthetic hermatypic corals have been found to a depth of 140m.

At the end of the GFO life your light intensity may be perfect for the level of Po4 then you renew the GFO, it sucks out all the Po4 and light is too strong, corals bleach.

the coral kicks the zoax out. the zoax after the GFO has been replaced are now relying on the coral for inorganic nutrients, but the coral is already providing all it can with the current amount of feeding.

I had this occur, so then I would try less light, only to have the corals brown at the end of the GFO light. So then I increased light back up, and bleaching occurred.

changes in light have to occur very slowly. feeding more will accomplish the same result. the coral needs time to adjust. the zoax are quick growers.

Conclusion is: I stopped using GFO, let Po4 creep up to 0.1 and run my lights at a higher intensity. Params stay more stable. And tank has never looked healthier. SPS are growing like weeds with great color and PE. = happy reefing.

what you said earlier about lighting and nutrient levels. if the polyps are out feed them.

G~

 

[Reefin' Dude]

Some reading material.

Aquarium Corals: Zooplankton Feeding by Corals Underestimated

Feeding a Coral Reef Aquarium

of course i do not believe i am posting a Shimek article, but he does get this right.
Feeding The Reef Aquarium, A New Paradigm

Pictures of Bomber's barebottom SPS tank and related equipment

i guess i am unsure what other data anybody would like. the information has been out there for years. we have just been ignoring it because we have been so infatuated with keeping poo as a pet instead of the corals.

G~

 

[PhaneSoul]

http://www.personal.psu.edu/sbj4/aquarium/reeffood/feeding.htm

I read that one last night. Note the percentages the coral get from symbiotic relationship, predation, photosynthesis, ect.. Ran out of time to read some more, I'll get to them in the next few days.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

that 20% from predation goes a long way. both organisms hold onto the resources very tightly once they are in the coral, but there still needs to be that 20% predation to keep the process going and the coral to get all that it needs. without the predation the coral is only getting the foodstuff from the zoax, and is not getting what it needs to be healthy. a step down food source can only provide so much, and each time it is reused it looses more and more usable energy.

G~

 

[PhaneSoul]

I'll share an experience I'm having with the only sps in my tank.

I got a frag of montipora spongodes a few months ago, I put him in my display tank and over a few weeks he just didn't look good. Lost his bright green color and polyp extension wasn't all that great. It's a newer system using tap water back then so pretty nutrient loaded. Well I cleaned it up, got an ro/di system. My system because nutrient low and algae free, ideally the model citizen for a lps tank, in fact my lps love it with great growth. Well my monti still wasn't happy but had wonderful PE even after a month of having a pretty clean tank. So I moved him to my 10g frag tank which has always been clean. Nothin color still wasn't coming backs em after several weeks. Then Reefin' dude told me to feed em. I broadcast feed the tank and I thought that would've been enough for him. So I started feeding him and within the first week I could already see the green coming back. Now he has gotten about 80% of all his color back and has been growing. I just mounted him in a permanent position a few days ago so I'm ready for a growth explosion
I know I have a pretty low nutrient level. The 10g gets a 100% waterchange and full cleaning once a month and 50% waterchanges & cleaning weekly. No algae whatsoever grows besides on any frag rocks that I get from the lfs and I have to clean the glass once a week. So it really was that simple, just feed them!

 

[power boat jim]

that 20% from predation goes a long way. both organisms hold onto the resources very tightly once they are in the coral, but there still needs to be that 20% predation to keep the process going and the coral to get all that it needs. without the predation the coral is only getting the foodstuff from the zoax, and is not getting what it needs to be healthy. a step down food source can only provide so much, and each time it is reused it looses more and more usable energy.

G~

For a simple mind like me, what would be the best thing to feed coral with? If it comes in frozen form or a bottle I can probably manage using it.

 

[IUfan]

That part

Few typos, this is what I meant to write.

I had this occur, so then I would try less light, only to have the corals brown at the end of the GFO life. So then I increased light back up and around the same time would replace GFO, and would have bleaching occur.


Conclusion is: I stopped using GFO, let Po4 creep up to 0.1 and run my lights at a higher intensity. Params stay more stable. And tank has never looked healthier. SPS are growing like weeds with great color and PE. = happy reefing.

I don't know scientifically why this happened tbh, it's just observations that I've had. I think if you aren't always on top of replacing GFO on a consistent schedule, then you can get a swing in Po4 levels, which I think can create problems. I think by not using GFO, there's no swing so you can just set a higher light intensity and things stay more stable.

I think ReefinDude explains the science part really well, in much better detail than I could.

 

[spkennyva]

i guess i am unsure what other data anybody would like.

This is all very helpful - still letting it all percolate into some realizable for my system. I've got another question, that is perhaps somewhat off topic, but I'd like to know if carbon dosing plays a role in the approach that you've laid out in this thread?

Thanks

 

[PhaneSoul]

Few typos, this is what I meant to write.

I had this occur, so then I would try less light, only to have the corals brown at the end of the GFO life. So then I increased light back up and around the same time would replace GFO, and would have bleaching occur.


Conclusion is: I stopped using GFO, let Po4 creep up to 0.1 and run my lights at a higher intensity. Params stay more stable. And tank has never looked healthier. SPS are growing like weeds with great color and PE. = happy reefing.

I don't know scientifically why this happened tbh, it's just observations that I've had. I think if you aren't always on top of replacing GFO on a consistent schedule, then you can get a swing in Po4 levels, which I think can create problems. I think by not using GFO, there's no swing so you can just set a higher light intensity and things stay more stable.

I think ReefinDude explains the science part really well, in much better detail than I could.

Yes that he does. I was gonna post a explain action but he beat me to it but that's okay because he does explain it very well.

 

[PhaneSoul]

This is all very helpful - still letting it all percolate into some realizable for my system. I've got another question, that is perhaps somewhat off topic, but I'd like to know if carbon dosing plays a role in the approach that you've laid out in this thread?

Thanks

Carbon dosing creates a lot more organic waste (dead bacteria that ends up either in the skimmer or in the sandbed), binds with phosphate at a much lower rate then the traditional bacteria does and I have not read any supporting evidence that shows the bacteria that thrive when you carbon dose are able to liberate phosphates from live rock. But I am a lil behind in my readings, but what I know so far points to carbon dosing negatively impacts phosphate liberation in calcium carbonate structures (aka live rock).

 

[Nano sapiens]

Last night I was rereading the older 'Aquarium Corals' by Eric Borneman (original copyright 2001). Older material, but still relevent:

'Nutrients acquired by feeding (prey capture) are available to the coral first, whereas absorbed nutrients are available to the zooxanthellae first'

'Even within the coral itself, chronic exposure to high nitrogen levels can cause zooxantellae to outgrow their hosts, causing the delicate balance between the symbiots to be lost'

'Thus, maintenance of the coral/algae relationship depends on low nutrients levels with just enough external food sources to meet the coral's growth needs. On average, the hematypic ('reef building) and symbiotic (photosynthetic) corals meet their total needs roughly as follows: 60-70% from zooxanthellae, 20-30% from feeding and 10-20% from bacterioplankton and DOM (dissolved organic carbon), with each method taking up slack in the temporary absence of another'

Corals will attempt to survive any way they can, but we can control which nutrients sources are available in our aquariums ot provide for their optimum health.

Couple things that I do to try and meet coral nutritional needs:

 

[tkeracer619]

Good articles on nutrient export.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-10/newbie/index.php

 

[lynchmob3000]

You may look into the Redfield ratio. Your n is a little high for your p04 imo. May need to balance to get your biological systems rolling. My po4 is .24 and my No3 is lower then 5. Just my .02.

 

[CStrickland]

As sexy as the Redfield Ratio sounds on first glance, it is not a good tool for our tanks because it is a measure of these compounds within organisms like ground up phytoplankton. As such it does little to predict whether other organisms will thrive in shared water.

As in, on a given Sunday morning my residual Jameson levels might be fairly high but this would not extrapolate to my husband in the same house having a hangover :beer: