Korallin Calcium Reactor

[jdieck]

Not all check valves are the same. Usually high pressure gas check valves require counter pressure to properly seal, unfortunately a Calcium reactor does not create much back pressure so the valve does not close properly and small amounts can back flow.
Other valves have positive closure vi a load spring that keeps them closed until enough pressure is applied to them. These are the ones I prefer for systems where one side has almost no pressure. They might have a tendency to create some surge as the pressure needed to open them creates gas accumulation in the tubing that gets released in surges as the valve opens and closes. To reduce this effect install the new chack valve as close to the regulator needle valve as practical.

 

[CLC]

I am in the process of trying to dial in my new 4002. I have printed off a copy of Dragon Slayers set-up set and set it up as he suggests.I have been playing around with it for the past 3 weeks with no sucess. I set it last night to:

33ml/min
37b/m
effluent pH6.4
DKH 42

It is still not enough and when I checked it tonight the b/m was at 27b/m the ml/min was the same for once.

Why would the b/m drop? There is a small bubble in the top of the reactor but does not even cover the top of the lid.I have outlet 2 shut off because the 2-3d/m always stops by the next day.Any Ideas why?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Great thread by the way, I have spent many many hours reading it.

Craig

 

[jdieck]

The bpm can change due to many things usually:
a) Using a single stage regulator is not precise enough to maintain an absolute constant delivery pressure at the required low 10 to 25 psi
b) changes in temperature slightly change the setting on the needle valve
c) Settling of the media or trapped air bubbles changes the suction pressure of the recirculation pump.

The lower the bubble rate and the lower the delivery pressure the more variability you may encounter
So as variability is expected although we usually talk about a set level of bpm as far as it is within a range (say you target 35 bpm and atay changing 30 to 40 it is OK. Remember that the goal is to maintain the media PH withing the 6.5 to 6.6 range and as far as it stay there the bpm is just a reference.
To improve the bpm stability you can try increasing the regulator output pressure to about 20 to 25 psi. The needle valve will be more sensitive but once set it mihgt maintain a more stable bubble rate.

The idea of using a small drip on outlet 2 is to have as little effluent as possible but have it so slightly open so any trapped axcess CO2 on the top of the reactor escapes preventing loosing the priming on the pump. It does not have to be set at exactly 2 or 3 dpm it can be 10 or whatever is necessary just to keep a very slow drip so you do not eventually loose priming.
At the end of the day this is not a critical parameter and could even be used as your main effluent valve.

Regarding the amount of alkalinity not being enough remember that the amount of alkalinity added is dependent on the effluent flow and the effluent alkalinity, you can increase the amount of alkalinity being added by:
a) Increasing the effluent alkalinity maintaining the effluent flow constant. (Although you are getting about the maximum effluent alkalinity a reactor would provide)
b) Increase the effluent flow maintaining the effluent alkalinity constant.
c) Increase Both Effluent Flow and Effluent Alkalinity
Because there are physical limits to either selection it is recommended to make adjustments alternating between the (a) and (b) methods until either the tank's alkalinity consumption is matched or one of the methods has achieved it's maximum limit.

Increasing the Effluent Alkalinity: For a given flow, the effluent alkalinity can be increased by increasing the amount of CO2 added thus lowering the effluent's PH. The limit will be achieved when the PH has reached it's minimum (about 6.3 to 6.5) which is were you are at that effluent flow. The maximum alkalinity achievable seems to have a limit of about 34 to 35 dKH but chemical tests may indicate a higher value due to potential particles of media being carried into the sample and those particles dissolving during tritration of the sample. Note that if the required Alkalinity needed to match the consumption is at or above 35 dKh, it is necessary to increase the effluent flow as described below.

Increasing the Flow: When increasing the effluent flow, the effluent alkalinity will tend to drop and this will be reflected by a drop in the effluent's PH. To return alkalinity to the level previous to the flow adjustment, you will need to also increase the amount of CO2 being added until the PH (and as a result the effluent Alkalinity) has reached it's previous level. Similarly, flow reductions will require reduction in CO2 addition to keep the effluent Alkalinity constant.
The maximum possible flow will be achieved at the point were there is not enough water residency time inside the reactor to properly dissolve the media. At this point the effluent alkalinity will drop with any added increase in flow despite maintaining the minimum effluent PH (est. at 6.5).
This flow limit is very dependant on the size of the reactor. Most commercial reactors for home aquariums seem to reach this limit between 100 to 150 ml/min. So you still have plenty of room to go if additional capacity is needed.

in your case to increase alkalinity addition try increasing the effluent flow and adjust the bubble rate to bring the PH back to the 6.5 level. Do this on steps until you have matched the consumption and maintain the tank alkalinity without dropping.

For a system with about 300 gallons try increasing the effluent to about 80 ml/min. for that effluent the bubble rate needed will be anywhere between 60 and 100 bpm range for a PH of 6.5
Also give the reactor time to stabilize between adjustments, most reactors take about 6 hours but some are picky and may take up to 24 or 48 hours to stabilize.

By the way if you are also using your Kalk reactor insure that it is stable and matching your evaporation so it is providing the maximum addition in a stable way so it will not create another source of variability.

Let us know how it goes.
Jose

 

[CLC]

Thanks Jose-It is nice to get such detailed instructions. I will try increasing the effluent drip and bubble rate. Would it be wise to jump the drip rate to 80ml/min and 60b/m?
My tank readings were:
pH8.2
KH7.2
CA450
At 33ml/min and 37 b/m

24 hours later:
pH8.2
KH6.9
Ca445

Effluent
pH6.4
KH42
Ca690

But that is when I checked 24 hours later and found that my b/m droped to 27b/m. I have tried using your calculator and it says to adjust the drip rate to around 42ml/min?

My reactor is filled with Korallith (1.8mm-2.5mm) and I am feeding the reactor with a aqualifter pump. Outlet 1 goes into the Co2 port on my skimmer. The skimmer sits above the reactor so the hose goes up and above the reactor in to the skimmer and outlet 2 (the one in top center of the lid) goes into my sump and drips above the water level.

Will the skimmer put any back pressure on the effluent hose being that it is injected in the skimmer box at the base?
Why would I keep getting bubbles traped in the outlet 1 hose?
Will this effect the effluent drip rate? My effluent drip rate always seems to decrease, 24 hours later when I check it.

Thanks for the help!

 

[jdieck]

No, do not go all the way up at once, try effluent increments of 10 ml at a time and test every 24 hours but adjust every 48.
The calculator assumes that as you increase effluent rate you will are able to maintain the effluent alkalinity but in reality some media like Koralith may be slower to dissolve at higher rates so I assumed two things, that your effluent alkalinity of 42 is skewed to the high side and in reality is around 30 to 35 and that as you increase flow your effluent alkalinity will drop a bit. Because thos e assumptions you will really have some variability as you adjust so do it in increments. So try 40 to 45 ml/min and see how it goes. Adjust the bubble rate accordingly to maintain around 6.5 PH.
The bubble accumulation, if it is CO2 and not air (which might be if there are some bubbles in the suction in the sump) may be an indication of excess CO2 in proportion to effluent rate which would happen if indeed the skimmer is putting some back pressure on it and the effluent you are getting is not what you measure while disconnected from the skimmer.
If the skimmer vent is not restricted and what is above the inlet level is mostly foam I doubt you get much back pressure other than the head pressure from the hose being higher; even if you do keep trying to adjust connected to the skimmer as it is a lot better for the tank's PH sake. When measuring the effluent flow try rising the hose to the inlet level to at least account for the head static pressure inside the hose.
Also open the outlet 2 a little bit to get a slow steady drip 5 to 10 bpm that will help with the bubble.
also in between adjustments you can add some baking soda and calcium chloride if the alkalinity drops too much.

 

[CLC]

Wow, I just tested my tank and effluent. I had to doulble test to make sure I was reading it right. As of last night my tank readH8.2 KH6.9 Ca445. EffluentH6.4 KH42 Ca690 at 33ml/min and 27b/m. It was set to 37b/m the previous night but somehow dropped to 27b/m so I left it to see what would happen.

Tonights tank readingH8.4 KH8.0 Ca465. EffluentH6.6 KH33 Ca640 at 33ml/min and now for some reason 32b/m?

My effluent has dropped in readings and the tank has skyrocketed? I am going to leave the reactor the same tonight and test again tomarrow night.

When I open outlet 2 to vent the reactor, if there is a bubble at the top. Which is usually quite small after a few days. The Co2 in the bubble counter really starts flowing, is this normal? I plan to use outlet 2 at a few drops a min, as soon as I can get the rest of the reactor to stay stable or should I do this now? That is how I started out with the reactor but it kept stopping?

I use a Millwakee deluxe dual gauge regulator with needle valve, bubble counter and solinoid on a brand new 10# Co2 tank. The bubble counter on the regualtor reads double the b/m than the bubble counter on the reactor, is this normal? I use the one on the reactor and don't pay attention to the one on the reg. Is this o.k. to do?

Thank you!

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7726288#post7726288 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CLC

Tonights tank readingH8.4 KH8.0 Ca465. EffluentH6.6 KH33 Ca640 at 33ml/min and now for some reason 32b/m?

As I mentioned the buble rate will potentially be changing troughout the day around a middle point although it seems that there is some back pressure built into the reactor potentially by the skimmer or the higher level of the effluent tubing.

My effluent has dropped in readings and the tank has skyrocketed? I am going to leave the reactor the same tonight and test again tomarrow night.
Seems like a god plan, I do not thing the effluent has dropped in readings I think the original test was somehow skewed. 33 dKh is a normal saturated effluent reading.
Monitor the tank if Alkalinity keeps increasing then I will ask you to lower the bubble rate to increase PH of the effluent to around 6.6 to lower the alk of the effluent and lower the addition as a consequence. You could also lower the effluent as well but I am afraid that lower than the 30s may be difficult to maintain stable.

When I open outlet 2 to vent the reactor, if there is a bubble at the top. Which is usually quite small after a few days. The Co2 in the bubble counter really starts flowing, is this normal?

This is what leads me to believe that there is some small pressure inside the reactor, as soon as you open the line the pressure drops so more CO2 flows in. Pressure is good inside the ractor as it improves the CO2 disolution rate and amount but if excessive (which I do not think will happen using an aqua lifter) the pump "O" ring may leak. If you have no leaks then keep the pressure but in order to do so then use the outlet 2 for your effluent line and close the outlet 1. This will give you more stability and whatever small amount of excessive CO2 will be removed by the skimmer.

I use a Millwakee deluxe dual gauge regulator with needle valve, bubble counter and solinoid on a brand new 10# Co2 tank. The bubble counter on the regualtor reads double the b/m than the bubble counter on the reactor, is this normal?
Bubble flow and size is a function of pressure, temperature and size of the orifice. as the pressure and temperature is basically the same in both counters in this case the orifice in the reactor counter is larger than the orifice in the regulator counter so the bubbles in the reactor are larger, the total amount of CO2 is exactly the same just less but larger bubbles.
This is why bubble rate shall not be used as a measure of CO2 amount but a visual indicator of amount of change when making an adjustment. In other words the bubble rate change is relative to a change in needle valve adjustment, thats it. It does not say that an specific amount is needed to achieve certain PH, this is why you adjust and test PH and repeat the process until the desired effluent PH is achieved.

So in summary:
a)Change your effluent to output 2 and close output 1
b)Adjust the reactor to similar parameters you had. (PH 6.5 flow 33 ml/min)
c) test the tank and re-adjust. If Alkalinity is increasing, reduce the CO2 to reduce the amount of alkalinity in the effluent (Increase it's PH to 6.6). Note that at higher Calcium and Alkalinity the consumption increases a bit.

 

[gregr]

Thanks Jose-It is nice to get such detailed instructions.

It sure is- thanks Jose!

 

[jdieck]

Monkey say :thumbsup:

 

[CLC]

Thanks Jose- I will change my effluent to output 2 today and reset the parameters. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[CLC]

O.K. without touching the reactor from last night. Tonights tank readings are:
pH8.3
KH7.8
Ca460
33ml/min
24b/m?

Effluent:
pH6.5
KH30
Ca660

I did not touch the reactor last I left it the same as the night before, but I still get different readings?

So I did as you suggested and measured the effluent at the skimmer to compensate for static pressure.I get 33ml/min on the floor beside the reactor and 21ml/min at the skimmer. Is that a big drop or did you expect that would happen?

I also switched to outlet 2 for my effluent, but I may have found the problem. When I closed outlet 1 (ball valve fully closed) I see air bubbles still traveling through the tube after the valve? I also notice that the top of the lid on the reactor has salt and a bit of water on it, obviously from the ball valve on outlet 2, so I think that the valves are garbage. They are the orange gardena valves that came with the reactor (Brand New!) Is this a common problem with these valves. What are my options? Do you think that these valves are what is causing the problem of keeping the reactor stable?

I have the effluent on outlet 2 at 28ml/min at the skimmer (it read 43ml/min on thr floor) and 22b/m it seems to have changed when I switched to oulet 2. I'll retest tomarrow night to see what these changes have brought.

Thanks for the help!

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7733599#post7733599 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CLC

So I did as you suggested and measured the effluent at the skimmer to compensate for static pressure.I get 33ml/min on the floor beside the reactor and 21ml/min at the skimmer. Is that a big drop or did you expect that would happen?
Yes I expected that, there is no issue other than taking the meassuremens consistently at the same level.

Is this a common problem with these valves. What are my options? Do you think that these valves are what is causing the problem of keeping the reactor stable?
I would say that other than the valves leaking (hope you can fis) I would say that your reactor has been stable. You have been able to maintain a rather stable effluent ~ 33-37 ml/min and a bubble rate between 24 and 35 which is not unusual.

I have the effluent on outlet 2 at 28ml/min at the skimmer (it read 43ml/min on thr floor) and 22b/m it seems to have changed when I switched to oulet 2. I'll retest tomarrow night to see what these changes have brought. I think you are almost there with your Alkalinity maintained at 7.8 to 8 dKh once it is stable you can use baking soda and calcium chloride to bring the levels to your targets and the bubble shall not be forming anymore.

Thanks for the help! [/B]

 

[CLC]

So, now that I know 33ml/min is 21ml/min at the skimmer I should not be using the 33lm/min I should be using the 21ml/min or should I be bumping that up to 33ml/min at the skimmer?

Do you think I should replace the ball valves? Can you get gate valves that would work on the reactor? If so where?

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7733682#post7733682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CLC
So, now that I know 33ml/min is 21ml/min at the skimmer I should not be using the 33lm/min I should be using the 21ml/min or should I be bumping that up to 33ml/min at the skimmer?

Do you think I should replace the ball valves? Can you get gate valves that would work on the reactor? If so where?

If you are using the calculator you need to use the real flow going into the system so measure at the skimmer level and use the 21 ml / min as your base volume reference from which to adjust.

Gate valves are not th right ones, if you want improved adjustment you need plastic needle valves. You can get them with 1/4 John Guest connectors from www.usplastics.com
item 22326
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...SPlastic&category_name=15615&product_id=15616

 

[CLC]

Thanks for the link. I think I will order a couple.

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7735679#post7735679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CLC
Thanks for the link. I think I will order a couple.

One tip if you get them. Plastic needle valves are excellent for small flow adjustments but if closed too tight the needle gets deformed and will not work as accurate any more so once you install them try not to use them to stop the flow, for that ball valves are the way to go.
In my system I have a ball valve at the entrance to cut the flow for maintenance but I have a needle valve to adjust the effluent.

 

[CLC]

Hi Jose,

Well I think I have it figured out now (Thanks to you). My tank readings are the SAME as last night.
pH 8.4
KH7.8
Ca460

Effluent:
pH 6.4
KH35.2
Ca650
25ml/min
28b/m

I haven't adjusted the reactor at all from last night, but the ml/min jumped from 21 to 25 and b/m from 24 to 28? As you can tell from the effluent reading pH down and KH up. I am leaving it as is and will test daily for the next week.

Thanks!

As for the needle valves, I haven't ordered them yet, but was planning to tomarrow. Do you think that I should put 1 needle valve on the output I am using and a ball valve on the the other output that will be closed off? and also a ball valve on the input before the reactor? Twice when I turned the reactor off, the next morning when I checked it, water traveled through the Co2 line to the check valve and some made it past the check valve? Is this o.k. or is the check valve not working? I took it apart both times and blew it out with a air hose and re-thread taped the fittings and blew out the hoses. It was completly dry when I put back on and now I notice one drop of water at the bottom loop of the Co2 line between the regulator and the check valve, but none between the reactor and the check valve. Could this be evaporation from the bubble counter on the regulator? Seems how I am not using the readings from this bubble counter, can I leave it empty (no water in it). It is kind of a PITA refilling it with water all the time when I am not using it? Or can it be removed from the regulator?

 

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7740304#post7740304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CLC
Hi Jose,

I haven't adjusted the reactor at all from last night, but the ml/min jumped from 21 to 25 and b/m from 24 to 28? As you can tell from the effluent reading pH down and KH up. I am leaving it as is and will test daily for the next week.

The effluent PH is a bit low but I do not think you will have any problems using Koralith media. If you notice that your tank PH is becoming low in the future youst adjust the reactor for a little bit more flow (about 30 to 32 ml/min) but for now leave it alone so you can see if it is really stable.
Soon you will be able to live without testing for a couple of weeks and will no longer need to test the effluent as you are now familiar with the base parameters.

As for the needle valves, I haven't ordered them yet, but was planning to tomarrow. Do you think that I should put 1 needle valve on the output I am using and a ball valve on the the other output that will be closed off? and also a ball valve on the input before the reactor?
That seems like a plan.

Twice when I turned the reactor off, the next morning when I checked it, water traveled through the Co2 line to the check valve and some made it past the check valve? Is this o.k. or is the check valve not working? I took it apart both times and blew it out with a air hose and re-thread taped the fittings and blew out the hoses. It was completly dry when I put back on and now I notice one drop of water at the bottom loop of the Co2 line between the regulator and the check valve, but none between the reactor and the check valve. Could this be evaporation from the bubble counter on the regulator? Seems how I am not using the readings from this bubble counter, can I leave it empty (no water in it). It is kind of a PITA refilling it with water all the time when I am not using it? Or can it be removed from the regulator?
The check valve is definitively faulty. Usually the cheap plastic ones are useless and I try to avoid Bronze as it can create copper sulphate if it gets in contact with salt water back flowing.
The best valve I have found is the D'Nearle. Here is the link:
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...PROD&Product_Code=M3-DCV&Category_Code=cparts

Eventhough the water in the bubblecounter evaporates, it will not condensate in the line because the CO2 gas is very dry and will be warmer in the line than in the regulator outlet (It cools down as it expands from the cylinder to the line.
I leave my bubblecounter dry (I no longer count bubbles, I go by the PH reading of the controller) in any case if you would like to use it and reduce evaporation you can use glicerine instead of water but insure the check valve is working properly but again you can leave it dry. Do not remove the counter from the regulator as it might be difficult to get a good seal at the threads again.

 

[MJSavage]

I set up my 3002 and the b/m & dpm stayed the same for 3 days then the b/m dropped from 13 to 7 then 5. No matter how much I change the needle valve the b/m stay the same now. Any ideas?

I'm using a Reef Fanatic Deluxe CO2 Regulator from ReefGeek.com

Remaining Pressure Guage 1100psi, Working Pressure 40psi (2.75 kg/cm3) which is where the manufacurer says it should be (working pressure of 2-3 kg/cm3)

Thanks,
Mike

 

[MJSavage]

Almost forgot. Any ideas what could be wrong?