Lanthanum chloride

Thanks for all of this Gary:)
Is the precipitate "sticky", or hard like Ca precipitate? One thing I havent seen you mention (or missed it) is if you reuse your bags or toss them?

I'll have to ask around the public aquariums and see how they actually dose and clean up the precipitate. I think Steinhart doses their waterchange water, but not sure about the tank systems themselves. How about Joes?

Think this will help with live rock "cooking"? I have a lot of rock from a few old systems that needs to be really cleaned up.
 
hello my friend! :wavehand:

I wash and reuse bags. New bags are definitely more effective. I'm not sure why.
It's funny you mention about 'sticky'- I've never seen anybody else talk about it. Obviously you have some experience with this?

You've asked a few questions that I wonder myself. I won't speculate on what others do because it becomes too confusing on an internet board.

Do I think this kind of thing might help cook liverock?
Maybe. If done in a proper manner this is an extremely effective manner of removing/reducing phosphates.
 
let me add this

let me add this

because I was just thinking about it earlier today:

I have some really old LR in my DT. (Over 15 years in my reef aquariums.) This method of PO4 removal is very effective at making them perform as "new" once again.
Old tank syndrome now has a name and it's called accumulated phosphates. Don't believe all that heavy metal BS. JMO.
 
Thanks Gary,
I'm not a chem guy, but have worked water treatment and aquariums and have seen some interesting stuff.

I'll ask around and let you know.

I do wonder about the short contact time, if its enough to get the full reaction and all its precipitate. I was thinking if you had a 2 minute contact reactor, or better, skimmer (rare I know) then run the outflow of the skimmer to the sock. You'd tag team the precipitate catch, ensure full reaction, and minimize any LC to the display and its observed irritation of some species.

Or is this just my typical overkill? :hammer:
 
I think it might be overkill and here's why:

although the initial dosing and removal performs the vast majority of PO4 reduction it's an ongoing thing. You can typically expect phosphate reductions for many hours after a treatment. I can tell judging from the rate at which my filter bag clogs :)

The skimmer output to mechanical filter is a great idea IMO.
 
H20ENG said:
I do wonder about the short contact time, if its enough to get the full reaction and all its precipitate. I was thinking if you had a 2 minute contact reactor, or better, skimmer (rare I know) then run the outflow of the skimmer to the sock. You'd tag team the precipitate catch, ensure full reaction, and minimize any LC to the display and its observed irritation of some species.
Click to expand...

I was thinking of the reactor idea for just this reason.
From the research of others commenting about the residual LC after dosing remaining and the continual precipitation over a few hours that Gary is seeing, all the LC cannot be being retained in the sock and travels throughout the system. When the "free" LC finally finds phos to bind to it must settle out throughout the system.

Gary or anyone else, do you see any precip forming outside the sock in your sump during/after dosing?

From everything written so far, it doesn't seem like the precip is too much of an issue in the system, assuming it's nonreactive once it binds, but what about the free LC that travels through the system till it binds? Anyone pick up what causes the rapid breathing in tangs after dosing, or hasn't it been documented yet?
 
Anyone pick up what causes the rapid breathing in tangs after dosing, or hasn't it been documented yet?
Click to expand...

Capt,

I'm curious about the "rapid breathing in tangs after dosing". What is the origin of this? I find the tang issue questionable.

I did come across a story about a retailer in Cleveland who stressed a number of tangs in an apparently fish-only holding system when they tried to reduce phosphates with Lanthanum Chloride. Someone else killed two or three out of four tangs in a non-calcerous system when they used it. No one has figured out why either event triggered the results it did. Included in the hypotheses are
--- the lanthanum chloride reaction is toxic to some fish in systems where there are no carbonates (LnCl dosing apparently does have an effect on alkalinity) with anything toxic being absorbed by carbonates in systems with live rock/sand
--- impurities or contaminates in the LnCl
--- "intermediate radicals" produced in the reaction with a negative effect on some fish
--- a physical obstruction that has to do with the precipitate when it enters the gill tissues, or blood stream, or various organs of the fish
--- an overdose of LnCl resulted in excess Lanthanum in the system that likewise poisoned the fish (versus Lanthanum Phosphate precipitates doing it)

I have a hand-me-down Yellow Tang in my (150 Rubbermaid) sump. He's done a lot of swimming through Lanthanum Phosphate clouds, with no ill effects that I can see.

Thanks,
Bob
 
After reading that paper, I think I need to make arrangements to mechanically filter out the lanthanum chloride more effectively.

I've been dosing the 'Phos-Free' from Leslie's pool supply since March, dosing about every two weeks before water changes. My dosing regimen is probably too simple, but I basically draw up 10 mL of the PhosFree into a syringe and slowly inject it into the skimmer intake. It makes the skimmer go crazy for a few minutes. I've never noticed any increase in turbidity of the aquarium, nor any labored breathing or other negative impacts on fish or invertebrates.

I don't test for phosphates, since I'm not convinced that hobbyist test kits are accurate and I don't want to spring for a colorimeter.

I'll probably start looking for some 10 micron filter socks, just to play it safe even though I've been using this lax protocol for nearly 10 months. ;)
 
Conesus_Kid said:
After reading that paper, I think I need to make arrangements to mechanically filter out the lanthanum chloride more effectively.

I've been dosing the 'Phos-Free' from Leslie's pool supply since March, dosing about every two weeks before water changes. My dosing regimen is probably too simple, but I basically draw up 10 mL of the PhosFree into a syringe and slowly inject it into the skimmer intake. It makes the skimmer go crazy for a few minutes. I've never noticed any increase in turbidity of the aquarium, nor any labored breathing or other negative impacts on fish or invertebrates.

I don't test for phosphates, since I'm not convinced that hobbyist test kits are accurate and I don't want to spring for a colorimeter.

I'll probably start looking for some 10 micron filter socks, just to play it safe even though I've been using this lax protocol for nearly 10 months. ;)
Click to expand...

What size system do you have? 10ml seems like a lot. I only dose 1ml every 2 weeks in 100 gallon system.
 
I've been dosing late at night when the lights are out specifically when my fish are sleeping. The thought I had was that their respiration is lower and thus they are breathing slowly - that their gills would be less clogged by the floating particulates. To be honest, I don't know if it might be better when they are active in case they could actually smother from breathing too slow in poor water conditions.

That being said, I've not lost any fish to dosing LaChl in my tank, and I've been using it every couple of months for almost two years.

The Atlantis Aquarium uses it for their system, but they are dosing it directly into their enormous skimmers. I'd love to do that, but I'd have to dose 10 drops per hour for 12 hours to contain it there. Gary (and others) 's system of using a filter sock or diatom filter sounds like a better plan, and one I've been thinking about.
 
NaClH2Opgh said:
What size system do you have? 10ml seems like a lot. I only dose 1ml every 2 weeks in 100 gallon system.
Click to expand...


The system is approximately 250 gallons.

To be honest, I think that much of my dose ends up right in the skimmate collection cup since the skimmer "overflows" shortly after I "inject" the dose into the skimmer intake.
 
captain7359 said:
I was thinking of the reactor idea for just this reason.
From the research of others commenting about the residual LC after dosing remaining and the continual precipitation over a few hours that Gary is seeing, all the LC cannot be being retained in the sock and travels throughout the system. When the "free" LC finally finds phos to bind to it must settle out throughout the system.

Gary or anyone else, do you see any precip forming outside the sock in your sump during/after dosing?

From everything written so far, it doesn't seem like the precip is too much of an issue in the system, assuming it's nonreactive once it binds, but what about the free LC that travels through the system till it binds? Anyone pick up what causes the rapid breathing in tangs after dosing, or hasn't it been documented yet?
Click to expand...
rapid breathing/ potential harm to Tangs (and possibly other fishes) has been well documented and I think I mentioned it in the beginning of this thread. I also mentioned problems associated with certain mollusks.
No visible precip has ever formed outside my filter sock anywhere. It's suspected that precip might tend to form on aquarium sand/gravel.
Since it continues to catch particulates long after each dosing I run my filter sock 24/7 nowadays.
 
how about crustaceans being affected? i was dosing a lot of LC on a daily or other day schedule, and i have noticed that there are no mysis or copepods in my system anywhere.

has anyone else noticed this?

Carl
 
Gary Majchrzak said:
I wash and reuse bags. New bags are definitely more effective. I'm not sure why.
Click to expand...

Gary,

How do you clean out your filter bags. Do you find you need to soak them in vinegar or the like to get rid of the precipitate or does a good hosing out seem to do it.

Gary Majchrzak said:
In the meantime, I'd suggest diluting Lanthanum glycolate even more than one would Lanthanum chloride.
Click to expand...

I also agree reduced dosing and probably lower dosing over a longer period would be best. I am currently running at <0.03 phosphates so i am more after ongoing maintenance as my fish stocks grow that outright major reduction. A guy in OZ is also doing Starver but only dose a small amount each 3-4 days and has seen no negative impacts. Always a good sign.
 
Last edited:
Reefski's said:
how about crustaceans being affected? i was dosing a lot of LC on a daily or other day schedule, and i have noticed that there are no mysis or copepods in my system anywhere.

has anyone else noticed this?

Carl
Click to expand...

I dose and keep a mandarin in my tank. There are tons of pods for him to feast on. I also have a pistol shrimp.
 
kirsto71 said:
Gary,
How do you clean out your filter bags. Do you find you need to soak them in vinegar or the like to get rid of the precipitate or does a good hosing out seem to do it.
I also agree reduced dosing and probably lower dosing over a longer period would be best. I am currently running at <0.03 phosphates so i am more after ongoing maintenance as my fish stocks grow that outright major reduction. A guy in OZ is also doing Starver but only dose a small amount each 3-4 days and has seen no negative impacts. Always a good sign.
Click to expand...

I wash filter bags with tap by hand. A 10 micron bag on my heavily stocked aquarium easily clogs up in 12 hours making cleanings a daily chore for me. No big deal to me but not for the faint of heart.
 
Gary Majchrzak said:
I wash filter bags with tap by hand. A 10 micron bag on my heavily stocked aquarium easily clogs up in 12 hours making cleanings a daily chore for me. No big deal to me but not for the faint of heart.
Click to expand...

10 micron all the time or just after LC dosing??

I salute you if you're running those constantly!!
 
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