Large Tank IN a Basement-Ventilation Suggestoin Please oh brethern of the mamoth tank

Thanks guys! This helps. I think this is going to work!

I will have an AC3 controller programmed to to cut the lights in heat emergencies. This will also control the ventillation fan.

I have a 100 pint per day dehumidifier in the basement for backup. Will look into an HRV unit.

The good thing, is that I have the winter to just run the plumbing and cure some rock and see how the temp control and humidity work out.

Will start a post to log my trials and errors with this.

Ryan.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11108592#post11108592 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capncapo
Anything that is weatherproof and can be closed or capped off will work fine. That can include PVC, aluminum, galvanized metal or anything else you might think of.

I think you'll find more air exhaust items at your local hardware store than you will intake items. Most will have some sort of flapper that requires air blowing out in order for the flapper to open. You can always remove the flapper but try to insure that animals and bugs don't have a path into your home if you do.

Personally, I would have the fresh air intake in your fish room if you have a fish room. I would also run it down close to the floor.

If you will be venting the hot air out through the same wall I would place the intake and exhaust as far apart as possible. You don't want to exhaust hot, moist air and then turn around and suck it right back in.
Click to expand...

I'd like to say thanks also. I thought it could be implemented but wanted to put it past an expert for critique.
 
And the bugs can be a problem. My inbound vent gets covered with them and I have to shop-vac them off. I guess they are attracted to 1000W 20K lamps!! :lol:
 
It sounds like you are on the right path.

I use a pair of fans plus a humidity and temperature controller to trigger them for air exchange in my fish room. I happen to live in a place where the outside air is always cooler and drier than my tank's water temp (80F), which means passive cooling and air exchange are both viable.

During the daytime in the winter, the tank lights and solar flux keep the tank room above 80F with no active heating, which means the tank water stays warm without any extra heating, too. A few times during the day the fans will kick on and bring in cool, dry air while purging the wet stuff. At night the room drops as low as 65F and the heaters kick in. I set the controller to keep the room humidity at 70% or better.

In the summer, the room can get considerably warmer, so the fans will stay on much longer, and I must allow the room humidity to get higher, too. There is plenty of cool night-time interval, though, to let things stabilize and "dry back out" in time for the next day's round of warming up.

Since you have a nice chunk of time to "practice" with environmentals, try the passive routes first. They are cheaper, more energy efficient, and there are less things to "break." If your controller permits it, put an extra sensor in the room to measure the ambient temp and collect some data. You can use this to "tune" your choice of equipment. Do recognize, though, that the real challenge will probably be in the summertime unless you live in a cold climate.

Good luck!

Ben
 
Basement tank....

Basement tank....

I'm the the process of planing out an inwall 7x3(or 4)x2.5 tank for the basement. Some particulars:

* I bought a new builders spec house on the cheap. The HVAC system was ripped out and redone.
* I live in Chicago so its both humid in the summer and cold/dry in the winter.
* I have a 90+ variable speed lenox in the basement that services basement and first floor.
* I have an 80 variable in the attic that services the second floor. the reason its not a power vent is because its in an uninsulated part of the attic.
* Both condensors outside are variable speed, and the controlers can lower them to draw more humidity out of the air in the summer basd on the humidistats and the outside temperature sensors.
* The system monitors the dew point and kicks on the humidifier in the winter to keep humidity just under where the windows dew up based on outside humidity. Furnaces circulate air wheter burner is on or not to spread humidity if humidifier is running.
* HRV runs during the winter and most of the summer (I turn it off spring and fall when the windows open)
* Both systems have large canister hepa filters. Furnaces are the 4 inch media filters. Hepas run 24x7.
* Waterheater is a powervent, and its next to the furnace in the basement.

As you can see I take my HVAC seriously :) Its the best system I could put together energy effeciency wise that still made "sense" It helps that my cousin-in-law is a HVAC contractor :)

I'm REALLY happy with it.. the variable speed means its always comfortable, its always the right humidity, its always, well nice. I don't want to completely screw this up with the tank going in :)

So this was what I was thinking after reading as much as I can:

* Seal off the fish room.
* Install a HRV fishroom only.
* Install a dehumidifier. I have a lil portable jobbie put I'll probably look for something maybe a bit larger and more efficient.
* Install a small dedicated AC system with a condenser outside.

How it would work
Summer:

Run the dehumidfier on a controller over 60%. Run the ac system keep room at 78ish. Temp sensor and humidi sensor installed outside. If at night temp falls below say 74, HRV kicks on and runs. Obviously the settings need to be tweaked but you get the general idea. Keep it as energy efficient as possible. I'm toying with the idea of adding a simple non HRV vent with a outside return to capitalize on the cool summer air.

Question: any way possible to hook a chiller into the outside condenser to make this even more efficient?

Winter:

Air return in fish room opened up so that humidity can be circulated in house. Manual system or humidity control actuater. If it screws up with the dewpoint calculations of the whole house system I'll just leave it closed. Will need to plumb in a fresh air vent to the rest of the basement for pressure to equalize so the return works. this is midly complicated and I have reservations about it. All I gain out of it is "free" humid air, and the current system actually does a good job of that. I also risk taking in nano-sized salt crystals and rusting the hell out of the HVAC gear.

Same setup above with summer although obviously the AC should never run unless something goes horribly wrong. The HRV and the dehumidifier should be able to hand the load. I assume I do want a HRV... being in Chicago when its -10F I'm thinking humidity and not heat are going to be the issue.

Am I missing anything here?

Thanks for your time :)
 
wmilas

I've been following this thread because I'm also in he process of planning in a large basement tank. I live in more or less the same climate as you (suburb of Detroit) and have similar plans. My current HVAC system is far from being as up to date as yours. It's a 25+ yr old system in a 1937 home. Suffice to say that it's in need for an upgrade, so I'm trying to plan my new HVAC system in conjunction with the tank.

My install shares one significant difference in that the tank will be an open top braceless design (~225gal) located in the living area of the basement ~10 feet from the equipment room. So, my approach is to focus on conditioning the air not only in the equipment room, but also the living space of the basement. I'll probably install registers above the tank in the ceiling to extract the air away from the tank either into the equipment room or directly through an HRV installed in the equipment room window. My basic idea is to suck humid air out of the area around the tank and the equipment room and process it through an HRV (geared towards the cooler/dry months). I'd also ike to maintain flow through the equipment room in order to avoid pH swings. Managing all this seems like quite a task, but I'm fortunate enough that my next door neighbor is a Sr. HVAC Tech at York. It's a good thing he appreciates beer! ;)

I'm also thinking about installing a second A/C unit to focus purely on the equipment room. Although, it would likely only be needed during the June-Aug months when outside temp/humidity peaks. I'd prefer to go this route only in lieu of a chiller. I like the idea of dumping the chiller's heat outside though. Perhaps that would eliminate the need for a dedicated A/C unit. I'll have to dig into this option.

I also share your concerns with rusting out the HVAC system. At least using a dedicated system (HRV, second A/C unit, blowers, etc) offers some piece of mind for your main HVAC equipment.

It seems that there's about a million different ways to setup a system like this. So far, I've been seriously researching this for a few weeks and have learned more about residential HVAC than I ever would have dreamed to know. This thread has been very helpful in pulling together a lot of good info.

One other item I've come across is an ERV (Energy Recovery Ventilator). It's basically an HRV with a built in dessicant wheel or other form of removing moisture from one air stream and transferring it elsewhere. It's mainly targeted for warm/humid climates, but I think it has it's value in our hobby. Here's a quote from the following link...

"The most popular design of ERVs utilizes a desiccant
wheel to remove both heat and a significant amount
of moisture from the incoming air, which reduces the load
on the air-conditioning system."

http://www.advancedenergy.org/buildings/knowledge_library/ventilation/erv.pdf

I'm not sure how effective these units are, but they caught my eye. If they reduce the overall burden on an A/C system, that should translate into lower energy bills.
 
Oltimer:

From the research I have done it seems that the dessicant wheel in the ERV saturates pretty fast and is not suitable for the amount of liquid generated by a tank. The thing is I know of no one who actually has one so its hard to tell. Since we are in the northern climates none of the contractors up here have any experience with them so I can't get a straight answer out of anyone.

As far as a chiller vs an airconditioner I'm just as stuck. If I install a chiller and a dehumidifier, and then make sure the tank has a closed hood on it in the fish room, along with sealing up the sumps as much as possible, I may not actually need a AC unit. My gut tells me I will though in the summer, then we are back to do I use the house airconditioner and risk the salt damage, or put in a smaller dedicated unit that I can blow up :)

I was initially toying with an opentop design but having that much humidity in my basement scares me :(
 
I have a dehumidifier but at this time of the month it doesn't go on.It did go on two weeks ago(just bought it recently) and it does heat up the room.I still think an a/c unit is better to dry the room and cool it.I have 2 portable a/c units I think I will install one in the garage and the other in my basement.My tank is covered for now but I also haven't installed my lighting.Once the lights go on the heat will rise.I do see this being a problem in the summer.I also see it as a waste to cool my garage with an a/c unit in the summer(sump is in the garage)I was wondering if I installed a fan to push the hot air out(garage) would that be enough,and left an a/c unit in my basement where the tank is.
 
wmilas you have pretty much a similar climate as we do.It may get more humid here(75%-95%) in summer and it does get hot.My old 150 was in my basement as well but my sump was underneath the stand.I had most of the top opened and I had to have my portable A/C unit on all summer or the tank would get to hot on those warm humid days.The problem with a chiller is if the room is to hot its not as efficient.I think the dehumidifier will drive the temp to high.I have seen my room temp go up to 25 celcius when the thing is on.Unless you can vent the heat outside you will be heating the room to get it dry you are better off with an A/C unit European models are nice I regret not getting one for my basement instead I have to install my portable one in the summer.
 
There was a HVAC "show" here in St. Louis about a month ago.

While attending, I stopped by the booth of every manufacturer who makes ERVs and asked them about their products. Not a single one of the reps could tell me that they recommended using an ERV in my area because of the high humidity levels in the summer.

ERVs should not be trying to dehumidify the air from the house. They should be trying to dehumidify the incoming air while also trying to exchange the heat to the outgoing air.

On another note....those who are concerned about harming their furnaces should not be worried about it unless they are drawing salt spray into their ductwork. As long as the return is far enough away from the tank, the possibility of salt getting into the ductwork is very minimal. Salt doesn't evaporate along with the water.
 
Last edited:
humidity will ruin a furnace.My gas furnace was 6 years old and was rotted out due to humidity in the room.My tank is no where near the furnace room and I have radiators (old home) for some reason there is humidity in my furnace room and my furnace didn't last as long as it should have.I will place a dehumidifier in the furnace room because I already see that I am getting a white residue on my new furnace(this is what happens when the furnace room is humid) the furnace will have to be cleaned.I don't know why this is happening but the fish room is a concern to me in the summer.
 
Furnaces in places like New Orleans stay in humidity like that the whole time that they are used. Seems like most of the ones I've seen down there are mounted in the attics of homes and because of that are in high humidity and heat year round.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11130364#post11130364 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capncapo
ERVs should not be trying to dehumidify the air from the house. They should be trying to dehumidify the incoming air while also trying to exchange the heat to the outgoing air.
Click to expand...

That was exactly what I had i mind, but the reps' feedback is consistent with the feel I got from everything I've read about ERV's. I also read a bit about the saturation of the dessicant that wmilas pointed out. I have yet to run this one by my neighbor, but I suspect his feedback will be consistent with yours. My idea was to reduce the load on the more expensive to operate A/C in the summer months.

I'm leaning towards the following...
* A dedicated A/C unit for the basement with ducting in the equipment room and near the tank
* An HRV for the equipment room
* Vents with adjustable dampers to regulate air passively betweeen the equipment room and living space
* No dehumidifier
* Possibly a chiller, but probably try to run without one at first
* Possibly a duct from the equipment room into the furnace return ductwork (assuming I'm convinced that it will not destroy my furnace) - In my mind this is not required with the HRV, but would allow me to distribute the humidity throughout the rest of the house during the dry/cold months
* A controller to regulate everything as seemlessly as possible
 
Why would you want to run a Heat Retaining Ventilator in summer? They are designed to do just that....retain heat in the house.

A separate mini-split system can definitely help.

A duct into the return of your furnace will help also but I would recommend that you also run a supply from the furnace into the fish room just to "pressureize the room a bit. It will help the return to draw air better.

I'm not a big fan of running dehumidifiers in the summer. They create unnecessary heat.

While vents with dampers between the fish room and living space may make the fish room a bit more tolerable you'll just be spreading the misery to the living space.
 
My idea was to run the HRV in the winter since cool/dry air is plentiful then. I thought of having an ERV (vs. HRV) for the summer based on this quote until I saw your feedback...

"The most popular design of ERVs utilizes a desiccant
wheel to remove both heat and a significant amount
of moisture from the incoming air, which reduces the load
on the air-conditioning system."

I'll plan to run both supply/return if I route fish room air to the furnace - thx.

My concept of installing the vents between the equipment room and the rest of the basement is to have the option in case I ever need it but ultimately keep air flowing through the room to avoid pH fluctuations. Perhaps there's a more efficient way to do this - ? I guess I don't expect the A/C to be working all the time.
 
The best way to keep the pH fluctuations in check is to have a fresh air intake.

Something you might want to consider is having a small intake that would supply air to your skimmer only. It could possibly raise your water temp a bit but could be well worth it.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11131665#post11131665 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capncapo
The best way to keep the pH fluctuations in check is to have a fresh air intake.

Something you might want to consider is having a small intake that would supply air to your skimmer only. It could possibly raise your water temp a bit but could be well worth it.
Click to expand...

Never considered that, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks!
 
Everyone agrees that an air conditioner, if you can afford it is great because it both lowers temp and lowers humidity. Great.

The problem arises with the dehumidifier. In a partly cold climate there are times when the air outside is both cold and too humid. Its in this case when the dehumidifier is nice... I think.

As why use a hrv instead of a simple vent? Well in the wintertime the HRV is a big winner. In the summertime the HRV will hardly be used because its most often more humid outside.

That leaves spring and fall. In these cases if its less humid outside and cold and you need to dump heat also, the hrv will be sub-optimal, but will still work, will just need to run longer to dump the heat. I think mine is a 85% efficient model, which seems to be pretty up there. Run it long enough and it will eventually dump enough heat. Mine is fairly cheap to run. Internally there is just a blower and thats it. While a simple vent would wok better we are looking at another two holes in the brickwork for that ontop of the two holes for the hrv, ontop of the hole for the ac unit, and another for the electrical to the condenser.

As far non corrosion of the AC unit I'm still worried about this. Yes I know that only water evporates. The problem is that I was Chemical Engineer for a short period of time (lasted all of 2 years in schooling :) and I know that its entirely possible for salt water to vaporize into tiny bubbles and float about. The more agitation the more likely this is possible. This is where salt creep comes from when its 10 feet away from your tank :)

Now I could put a foam filter on the intake to catch most of this but we are talking mold central, plus I still am not keen of same of the salt making it into the HVAC ductwork. It gives me the willies.

Am I missing something?
 
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