Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail
- Thread starter reefmutt
- Start date
I can even hide a red dragon frag in there for you.
FloformAustria
New member
wow!! :bigeyes:
looking AMAZING Matt!!
colors are insane!
thanks for sharing!
looking AMAZING Matt!!
colors are insane!
thanks for sharing!
Thanks for suggestions. My fish load is pretty light (3 fish + 2 fire shrimp). I feed twice daily. My hanna phosphate checker is currently out of reagents, so I haven't tested it in a while.
Usernam Invalid
New member
Can't be said enough love your pics Matt. I need to find a piece of that blueberry wine might be one of my new favorites.
DiscusHeckel
Acropora Gardener
Hi Matt,
In my opinion, this will only work if there is not already sufficient space for bacteria to grow in your system due to lack of surfaces such as live rock, sand bed, etc. By adding matrix, you are simply increasing spare capacity (read it as "housing") for bacteria to colonise. Unless you increase bacteria population at the same time, I cannot see how matrix can magically reduce nitrates.
Just my thought.
Cheers
Bülent
watchguy123
New member
that Furiosa is spectacular A joy to look at all your pictures. Oh and wow, your blueberry wine is awesome.
reefmutt
Active member
Thanks, Ward. Anytime you're passing through, if we can organize a visit, you are welcome. Thanks for the offer on the red dragon. Actually none of the dragons have rtned completely. If I actually have time to go in and frag them, I should be able to restart all three colonies. I may not put the green one back, however, I have so much green..
thanks for being so appreciative, Flo!Thanks, Dom! If my shots can make anybody's week, I'm happy! The only thing I am Overlord of is a half grown/half struggling mostly oddly coloured sps tank. Luckily some are still nicely coloured!
No problem.
get yourself a couple more fish. You have the best of problems. Thanks. When I first got it, I really thought it looked like a glorified tri color and I almost let it disappear down the back of my tank. Luckily for me, I fished it out and re glued it. I'm liking it now! Go check out Mark's (watchguy123) blueberry wine. It's really nice. There's a shot on the last page of his thread Through the Looking Glass.
Thanks Mark, the single most important thing I learned after crashing my tank was that patience is so important and taking the time to observe the little stuff is key..
This tank has made me realize just how much dumb luck I ran on with my older builds..
reefmutt
Active member
But Bulent isn't the definition of a tank (like mine) with elevated n and p, a system without enough available space for nitrifying bacteria? Or put another way, a system without the capacity to properly deal with the nitrate being produced.
Maybe I don't understand what you are saying but as far as I gather, yes, adding matrix to a system with nitrates present will indeed magically lower nitrates. Well, not magically, obviously but bacteria will colonize everywhere they can providing they have food and a location. So adding the matrix will allow for more bacteria to colonize and reduce the previously accumulated nitrate.
A system with n and p and fresh matrix (and appropriate water movement) is an ideal situation for denitrification.
If n is already 0, and naturally so - without the help of carbon sources- then I would agree with you.
Thanks Mark. I'm happy to hear you say that because every time I look at your thread I keep going, 'oooh, aaaah, I want that! How'd he get that?? I want one too!'
I'm liking how your blueberry wine is growing more densely than mine. The colour is very similar, though. I have trouble capturing the true colour when taking shots from the front. And it is so far back and close to the surface that it's hard for me to get a wider top down shot.
slavetonet
New member
God Damn Matt - blow my screen up again with your sps colours.
Damn I need to step up my game with the trace elements dosing.
I know my lights are the main problem at the moment - Not enough oomph.
Damn I need to step up my game with the trace elements dosing.
I know my lights are the main problem at the moment - Not enough oomph.
DiscusHeckel
Acropora Gardener
Hi Matt,
I may be very wrong here. If so, please correct me. Nitrifying bacteria need n, p and organic carbon (in addition to potassium, iron and some other elements) to live and thrive. Bacteria may be able to get their carbon needs from CO2 or even alkalinity (hence drop in alkalinity due to nitrogen cycle), but usually need some organic carbon source to multiply rapidly.
In my opinion, there are two possibilities here. One is that as you said with elevated n and p, you need more space for bacteria to colonise to reduce these nutrients. This assumes that your system is not carbon limited. If this assumption right, then you should indeed see drop in nutrients as soon as colonisation of nitrifying bacteria takes place on (or in?) the new media. The other possibility is that your system is carbon limited in which case adding more media for nitrifying bacteria will not make much different because without additional organic carbon bacteria population will not increase to consume n and p.
If n or p, or both are in short supply (e.g. zero), then adding organic carbon will not help either because bacteria cannot multiply without sufficient n and p in the water column.
Most reef set up are carbon limited with plenty of n and p. This is why I often assume that the second possibility is more likely than the first. Again, I may be wrong in this assumption.
Cheers
Bülent
biggles
Premium Member
Looking through all those amazing top downs just blew me away Matt - absolutely stunning mate :thumbsup:
My acros look the same as they did 18 months back........... i have the hates on my acros atm :thumbdown
I think you should do whatever is needed to protect my baby !
My acros look the same as they did 18 months back........... i have the hates on my acros atm :thumbdown
I think you should do whatever is needed to protect my baby !
reefmutt
Active member
Im happy to hear you say there is helpful info, Connor. Even with all the acro porn, I hope to keep the thread helpful. Thanks!!
thanks! The light should be the last thing you play with.. Get your water exactly where you want it before the lights. They may end up being just fine...Looking through all those amazing top downs just blew me away Matt - absolutely stunning mate :thumbsup:
My acros look the same as they did 18 months back........... i have the hates on my acros atm :thumbdown
I think you should do whatever is needed to protect my baby !
Thanks Andrew.
I'm sure your next fortune cookie will read 'growth is just around the corner!'
And it won't be referring to any anatomical features!
I think I will do a furiosa photo retrospective.. It's come a long way..
reefmutt
Active member
I agree with parts of this, Bulent but not all..
And before I begin, please disregard the facile explanations if you are already aware.. I'm just trying to be as explanatory as possible.. No offense! I am not a biologist, this is only my understanding of how it works..
First, let's make sure we are talking about the right thing, here. It's denitrifying bacteria we are talking about, not nitrifying bacteria.
Nitrifying bacteria, that live mostly on the surfaces of everything in the aquarium and that require lots of oxygen to breath are the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrate. Denitrifying bacteria, that grow in the very low oxygen areas of the tank (like in rocks, dsbs and other media like matrix or siporax) and use oxygen from no3 (nitrate) to breath are what we are talking about. It is the denitrifying bacteria colonizing the low oxygen areas and pulling the oxygen molecule out of the nitrate and phosphate that reduce the nutrients. They seem to like the oxygen molecule in the no3 better than the po4.. Not sure why.. Maybe on a chemical level it is easier to extract o from no3 than po4.. (that's beyond me..)
The following is my understanding not necessarily fact.. When talking about a captive reef with elevated or increasing nutrients (no3, po4) , it is almost impossible to have a carbon limited system. The very nature of a captive system with many organisms being fed regularly is such that some carbon is always present- especially if nutrients are elevated (fish foods and coral foods are also carbon sources). The available carbon may not be the best type of carbon like simple carbohydrates that come from sugar/vodka/pellets/vinegar etc but there is always enough to allow denitrifying bacteria to colonize all available space.
WITHOUT an actively added carbon source, the bacteria will sort of find a balance between available space to live given the amount of n and p there is to consume. As n and p climb, the bacteria can only colonize the available space and then reach capacity. If there is no more space, their numbers stop increasing. And if there is no more n or p, the same will occur. But given more space and available no3 and po4, the bacteria will continue to spread and increase in numbers. And thus be more capable of reducing the nutrients.
The addition of an external carbon source, either allows the existing denitrifying bacteria to go into overdrive OR allows different bacteria to thrive and as they populate the tank (sometimes clouding the water or producing bacterial slime in the shaded areas), they consume even more n and p.
To my mind, a 'carbon limited' system is a system with no waste producing animals in it... Not a reef tank.. In other words, for our intents and purposes, not possible..
If a system is phosphate or iron limited (or anything that will not allow bacteria to flourish) then yes adding more matrix or other surface area for denitrifying bacteria is useless.. Even adding a carbon source will be useless..
So, yes, bacteria need some po4, no3, carbon, iron.. Etc to thrive and without one of these, the bacteria stop working but I believe that carbon is almost always available.
I guess that where we aren't on the same page is with the concept of 'carbon limited'. I don't see that as a possibility in a full blown reef system.
So, I feel that as long as there is extra surface area and available n and p, bacteria will colonize that surface area and reduce the n and p.. Given enough surface area, denitrifying bacteria will reduce all available nitrate to 0 - as well as pull p down, but usually not as efficiently as n.
I guess where we differ is that I don't see carbon ever being a limiting factor whereas you feel that it is a common limiting factor..
joshky
Acros & Wrasses
I think you should do whatever is needed to protect my baby !
Yes, mail me a piece for safety. :blown:
Holy crap this one is stunning! I LOVE the dark polyps on the light base and neon tips, wooooooowwwww.
Kurt03
Active member
This article is an interesting read, haven't heard of this connection between temperature and phosphate uptake. We couldn't possibley help control po4 by elevating temperature could we? I think we need some more experiments.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/elevated-phosphate-reduces-coral-bleaching
what do you keep your tank temp at?
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/elevated-phosphate-reduces-coral-bleaching
what do you keep your tank temp at?
reefmutt
Active member
Thanks, Josh. You know, I am not certain but I'm pretty sure this was a cultured piece.. I suspect it is kind of common. It's amazing how corals can take on special characteristics in a given environment.
Hey Kurt, that is kind of cool.. I keep my tank at around 80 in the summer and closer to 76 in the winter. I haven't noticed a change in po4 levels when my temp goes up in the spring.. Just a snail spawning event.
There is a comment at the bottom of the advanced aquarist article that mentions the experiments were performed with poccillopora corals.
I guess acropora are similar enough...
I bet you have to get the temp up to the range where the corals go into a sort of survival mode. Then, they probably start storing po4 like squirrels store nuts before the winter..
wheelman76
New member
Hi Matt , thought you might be interested in reading this article after I read your thoughts on too much np pro possibly causing Stn in some of your corals. It's an interesting read and the video about microbes near the middle of the article is good too.
http://www.reefnation.com/side-dosing-vodkavinegar-amino-acids-reef-tank/
http://www.reefnation.com/side-dosing-vodkavinegar-amino-acids-reef-tank/
