Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[reefmutt]

Crap Matt.

You know I don't have as much experience as you do, like by a decade or more, but I'll spout anyway just to hear myself talk.

Hey Mark, I'd doesn't matter how long we've been at it. All of our experiences are different and every system provides new avenues for learning something new.. I am ALWAYS OPEN to spouting. spouting can change the world!

[/QUOTE]I would just stop testing everything but alk. I use Kalk but abandoned super saturated in favor of two part, the vinegar might work for some but it seems inconsistent and I am completely over carbon dosing. You know how it goes though, it works for some tanks and not for others.

I never add buffer by itself, always equal parts of a two part when I want to adjust KH. I stopped testing Calcium because it would make me react and I'm so weak willed I don't need more data else I'll go and change something that doesn't need to be changed. I do test Mag from time to time just to make sure it's near 1300. When I hear of people adding buffer I get confused (my lack of long term experience showing) because all I've ever known is two part or Kalk. Perhaps buffer is a normal part of operating a calcium reactor but that might make it 3 points of failure then ... [/QUOTE]

Yes.. as you and Bulent and geeray have pointed out vinegar may work but I'm not sure of how well it works in an sps system.. if there is anybody out there using vinegar in their sps system, I'd love to see it and hear about how the vinegar is added..
i will stop vinegar in favor of np pro in the kalk, so that I can do a controlled long dose instead of a bulk dose each morning.
The reason I was only dosing a buffer was because I had excessive calcium and magnesium levels. The tank didn't need any of that so shutting off the ca reactor halted additions of buffer as well as cal and mag but I still needed alkalinity to go in so only buffering allowed for alkalinity to remain stable while cal and mag dropped.
Two part, kalk and ca reactors all give a combination of both cal and buffering. But if you are out of balance, dosing just one or the other can rebalance the system..

[/QUOTE]I do not like Calcium reactors. I know they can save a lot of money and add micro elements back to the water but they also introduce at least 2 additional points of failure (and I hate external co2 tanks). That plus the fact many users have to add Kalk to manage low PH and it just seems like an accident waiting to happen. Give me another 10 years and maybe I'll change my mind. [/QUOTE]

I have been using ca reactors for more than 20 years and I have never had it be at fault for a system failure. At its most basic, it is a recirculating chamber with media in it and co2 being pumped into it.
I have never and will never have it connected to a ph controller because THAT is a potential point of failure. But just setting the co2 rate manually on the regulator and setting flow through manually, makes it a very reliable piece of equipment.. more reliable, imo than dosers...
Eyeballing co2 rate and flow rate daily is all that is required once it is dialed in. But like two part, one does have to make sure the buffering/calcium ratio stays within proper limits.
Next to manually dosing, I find the basic calcium reactor set up to be the most dependable..
And speaking of never testing certain things, I have always dealt with potential low ph by not testing ph!


[/QUOTE]The recovery of my tank started when I basically stopped doing anything but topoff and enough Kalk in the topoff to maintain Alk. I'm now at saturated Kalk and will have to use 2 part to make up the difference. My tank has never looked as good as yours, so there's that as well.

Thanks for tolerating my rambling.[/QUOTE]

Any time you want to ramble, Mark, I am listening.
I will stop vinegar but I do need a carbon source, so I will begin np pro to replace the vinegar.
The amount of kalk I am using is not sufficient to make up all evaporation. I don't have the space for a reservoir large enough so I have settled on about 3 liters or 3/4 gallon of kalk per day.
That is already not sufficient to keep up with calf/alk, so my ca reactor has been turned on already.

 

[reefmutt]

I'm with Markalot on this I would lose the vinegar. I had nothing but problems when I tried it years ago. I believe the vinegar was a recent addition for you as well isn't it?

I concur with Mark and Geeray.

I have never had any luck with white vinegar ever. Every time I used it (no matter how small amount) either on its own or in conjunction with calcium hydroxide, my SPS corals had STN and my LPS simply lost tissue and eventually died. FWIW, I used two different vinegar brands, but both contained 5% distilled vinegar from barley.

Thanks, guys, for steering me right. Despite yours and Mark's warnings, I have been using vinegar in my kalk but not with very positive results... so vinegar out, np pro in...

 

[reefmutt]

If you are using AF reef salt. Check the mag next time you do your wc. Last two buckets have been 1480-1500+ on the mag. I couldn't figure out why my mag was so high till i checked the salt. I usually only test alk and cal when mixing my salt. Guess I will have to start testing for mag now.

Well.. that is very interesting! I never tested the levels in the AF salt. I just went by the numbers on the little paper..
I started using AF probiotic reef salt last Christmas.. Then, went to the reef salt in the spring.. I have just picked up a couple buckets of Red Sea blue bucket because of its stated levels (maybe I should verify them!) and will use them for a while.

Hey Matt I hope things are turning the corner for you! Any updates?

I'm curious too did you ever end up switching to AF Reef Salt instead of the probiotic reef salt? I thought I remember reading somewhere that you were contemplating it.

Hey Tim,
So, here's my update...
First, as stated above, I have been using the AF reef salt all summer but just yesterday went to RS blue bucket..
The 'recovery' in my tank has been less than stellar but not without some positives. There are many brown and dying corals and many brown and recovering corals. Plenty have died- most notably my Oregon Tort and my Fiji fruit bowl. Both corals were the first to show signs of improper growth and the first to die after I shut down the ca reactor and the alk fell..
Since that initial alk drop, I have kept alk low- around 6- as I restarted maintenance with kalk. I now have a constant base dose of kalk -3 liters or 3/4 gallon per day- and my ca reactor is back on as well to keep up with demand.
I'm sure I will lose many more dormant/shocked corals but I am seeing some corals begin to regain some green colour... green is better than brown..
Interestingly, I had a couple of red planet frags that were brown and shut down BEFORE the alk drop and now, they have responded to the shock by colluding up again.. very odd..
With the corals mostly not growing, nutrients are high and difficult to manage. It's quite amazing how much nutrients they actually absorb when they are in growth mode.
I still can't get my ch ato to grow- it baffles me.. maybe it's because despite everything I did to bring down mag, it is still high.
Every other parameter fell but mag... which suggest the AF salt was indeed high in mag..
My plan is to get my hands on some mangrove pods and plant them in my dsb tank because I hear they consume magnesium..
I will also continue with no pro in my kalk instead of vinegar because without a carbon source, nutrients will get really bad..
I recently added 3 new frags to see how they do and I plan on receiving several more in a few weeks, if all goes well with these test frags.
The tank is back in 'soul sucking' mode. I don't look at it, if I can help it. I only feed the fish and make sure the system is running properly so that it can recover. When it finally does recover and I see real signs of growth and colour, I will rejoice! And produce a huge photobomb... but I suspect the tank will be just plain depressing for another couple months...

This tank crash has coincided with a super busy family schedule with both of my daughters doing intercity hockey and intercity winter soccer, so there is very little time to dwell or even get on RC..
When the tank turns around, I'm sure I'll be more motivated to update and get on top of all the RC threads I follow..
Thanks for checking in!

 

[tripdad]

Hey Matt, I hope the tank fully recovers quickly for you, I know it's never quick enough. In the meantime enjoy the girls, it goes WAY to quick as they grow up.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks, Scott. I know! One is going to high school, next year. Can't believe it.. that's the beginning of real life.. crazy.. too fast..
As for the tank.. yes.. never fast enough.

 

[drawman]

I feel you Matt my 60 gallon can be a tub of depression at times but it's worth it to work though. Keep your head up and I'm glad you're getting the test frags to check your progress.

Honestly, I've been the same as far as the AF Probiotic Salt I've been trusting the little paper and don't test Mag. Maybe ignorance is bliss here for me.

I'll be watching to see how the switch to -NP Pro goes for you. To me it seems like a pretty soft form of carbon dosing but that's just my impression with no evidence to back it up.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks, Tim.
I was using np pro right up until my screw up. When I started kalk, I transitioned from np pro to vinegar, so it's only been about 6 weeks or so on vinegar. As of today, I will mix my kalk with 8 drops per day np pro to replace the 35 ml/day vinegar I was using.. and test to watch where n and p go. It was seamless going to vinegar... we'll see how it goes back. I'm starting a touch low for np pro..
I have found that np pro is pretty potent but it takes a few days to really have full effect- unlike carbon sources like vodka or vinegar that have a rapid response by the tank.

 

[Rwpdunne]

Sorry for your trouble Matt

 

[wheelman76]

Thanks, Tim.
I was using np pro right up until my screw up. When I started kalk, I transitioned from np pro to vinegar, so it's only been about 6 weeks or so on vinegar. As of today, I will mix my kalk with 8 drops per day np pro to replace the 35 ml/day vinegar I was using.. and test to watch where n and p go. It was seamless going to vinegar... we'll see how it goes back. I'm starting a touch low for np pro..
I have found that np pro is pretty potent but it takes a few days to really have full effect- unlike carbon sources like vodka or vinegar that have a rapid response by the tank.

That's interesting Matt , I've found the opposite when it comes to np pro. I find it to be a very weak carbon source. Before starting Aquaforest pro bio s and np pro I was dosing vinegar daily and was able to keep no3 where I wanted it. Once I switched to np pro and stopped vinegar my no3 climbed to 25. I'm now using both np pro and vinegar daily and no3 is slowly dropping and down to around 10.

 

[markalot]

My point about the vinegar is not so much how it effects the tank but how it effects Kalk. I was measuring out an exact dose when using it with Kalk but kept getting wild KH swings due to what I assume is different saturation levels in the mixture. I felt like I would need to completely empty and rinse the kalk container every time to make sure the potency was consistent.

Good luck with the recovery Matt, I'm sure it will look great in no time.

 

[reefmutt]

Sorry for your trouble Matt

Thanks, Robbie (I thinks it's Robbie, if not I apologize.)

That's interesting Matt , I've found the opposite when it comes to np pro. I find it to be a very weak carbon source. Before starting Aquaforest pro bio s and np pro I was dosing vinegar daily and was able to keep no3 where I wanted it. Once I switched to np pro and stopped vinegar my no3 climbed to 25. I'm now using both np pro and vinegar daily and no3 is slowly dropping and down to around 10.

Hey Jess, I guess what I mean is that you're using drops of np pro compared to mls of vinegar. It's more concentrated. I felt the same way about np pro at first but that's because it took so long to have full effect on nitrate levels. I way over dosed np pro at first to have the effect I wanted but then had to back off again.

My point about the vinegar is not so much how it effects the tank but how it effects Kalk. I was measuring out an exact dose when using it with Kalk but kept getting wild KH swings due to what I assume is different saturation levels in the mixture. I felt like I would need to completely empty and rinse the kalk container every time to make sure the potency was consistent.

Good luck with the recovery Matt, I'm sure it will look great in no time.

Hey Mark, thanks. I can't really respond to the kh swing issue. I was mixing fresh kalk and vin every two days and washing out the container each time. For me, using a set amount of vin and kalk, my alk was rock solid at every test, which was once or twice a day.

Last night's mix was only kalk and np pro (6 drops per day, so 12 drops. I abandoned vinegar and Kno3...
I'll have to keep an eye on n and p but I think they won't move much.. reduced carbon source and no n addition should keep thing where they are..

 

[plyle02]

Matt, so sorry to hear this news, I have been in Chicago at the Aquatic Experience and just read up on the issues Hang in there man, I usually reset during these type of troubles by employing more of a KISS method for a few months. Hope you rebound swiftly man!

 

[reefmutt]

Hey Perry, thanks!
I know it'll get better. I just can't stand the wait.
I agree.. it's a good time to simplify..
Eventually, I plan to get some help from JBNY and begin only dosing his recipe of Zn, Mn and I.
I'll also watch K and continue kalk/ca reactor..

 

[shih87]

I did not aware what happen to your tank till now. Very sorry to hear that but I am sure your tank will recover with your skills.

Many signs indicate automatic alkalinity test device will be available in near future. Hope none of us experience Alkalinity hike anymore.

 

[vuqchu]

Sorry to hear about the swing Matt. I'm sure you will get it looking stunning again soon. Heck, it may still be stunning looking for most people including me.

 

[tripdad]

" Heck, it may still be stunning looking for most people including me."
+1 to this.

 

[reefmutt]

Ok! Little update..

I did not aware what happen to your tank till now. Very sorry to hear that but I am sure your tank will recover with your skills.

Many signs indicate automatic alkalinity test device will be available in near future. Hope none of us experience Alkalinity hike anymore.

Thank you Shih, the tank is now recovering quickly. An auto alk tested would be very nice but it wouldn't have saved me.. I made a stupid choice to shut my ca reactor off instead of just turn it down. It was totally my bad decision that caused all the problems..

Sorry to hear about the swing Matt. I'm sure you will get it looking stunning again soon. Heck, it may still be stunning looking for most people including me.

" Heck, it may still be stunning looking for most people including me."
+1 to this.

Vu, Scott, thanks! I cannot deny that the tank is still in ok shape..
I certainly lost many corals. Most notable (regrettable) my Oregon Tort and my blue Tort and the large cali Tort- actually all but one of my deep blue coloured corals.. also, furiosa, Fiji fruit bowl- again all of my Fiji coral died: the desalwi, speciosas.. many others were very touch and go. Turned brown and lost flesh but began to recover.
The tank is now in full recovery mode. I am seeing growth again and colour is returning to most corals.. even some of the corals that had been dormant for the past year are suddenly waking up.
I am holding out serious hope for a piece of pearlberry that I have had in the tank for easily two years. It has never done a thing. It is suddenly turning green and changing.
Many corals died off in sections underneath but the upper sides are beginning to colour up.
I have added a serious amount of new corals and the new ones are settling in well and some are growing.
Pe continues to get better and better at night.
I have discovered that having a mitratus butterfly in my reef is fine when the tank is in good shape but in a reef where corals are rtning and stressed, it only stresses them out more.
Here's a next to useless fts from yesterday:


I have made some significant changes.. but before that, I'll say what I have done to keep things stable over the past two months.
First, I stopped all additives. Besides food for the fish, I continued to add my pinch or reef roids/pearls and FM vitality mix that I have always added.
I started using Red Sea blue bucket for waterchanges and have been doing at least one and sometimes two 10% waterchanges a week.
I started dosing saturated kalkwasser at night. My ph never moves from 8.1-8.2 day or night.
The ca reactor is only running to add any alk that the kalk cannot supply. The ca reactor is probably running at half capacity. I am about to connect a kalk stirrer to be able to dose a higher volume of kalk.
Originally, my all dropped to around 6. I have been keeping it rock steady at 6.5 ever since. I plan to bring it up a bit, closer to 8, I think. This will allow me to use a salt with a higher alk for waterchanges. I may go back to H2 Ocean salt.
As for changes, I ditched my metal halides and leds and have gone full t5. The leds were never doing much for me and the mh were just giving me heat issues in the summer.
I also added several mangroves to my dsb because.. well, because I could but also because I read (somewhere.. a long time ago) that they can consume magnesium and I have a constant high mag problem..
I am currently running 2pure actinic, 3 blue plus, 4 coral plus and a giesemann aquapink for t5s.
When all the bulbs are on, it's a very nice blue/white look with good colour pop.
I added the giesemann aquapink because I happened to try a blue plus/aquapink combo and I really liked the look.
So far I really like the over all look.
During his whole recovery, I have only been running about 1/2-1/3 of my full lighting. In about another month, I will start ramping up to full lighting photoperiod.
Some corals may still die on me but by the looks of the new corals and the recovered corals, I am not stressing about it- I know that if they die, it is because of what happened 3 months ago and not because of anything that I'm doing now.
I'll post more photos soon. I'll start with some corals that just made it through and seem to be recovering and then some that are looking good... and them maybe some of the new corals..
Generally, I am very happy right now with the overall progress with the tank..
I hope you had some coffee for this little novel!

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Here's a next to useless fts from yesterday:

Hi Matt,

Despite the ordeal your reef been through, it still looks great to me.

Cheers

Bülent

 

[FloformAustria]

Hi Matt!!

i am glad to read that your tank is starting to recover!!
from the actual shot it really looks good... sure we can't see all the details but a really nice picture!!

keep me (us) postet!!

Cheers

 

[cFloor]

For a tank that is in recovery, it still looks amazing! I'm sure in the next few months you'll get it to where you want it to be. I've also had a Pearlberry frag in my frag tank for well over a year and it's one of the only corals I own that hasn't done anything. I'm glad yours is starting to color up a bit.