LED or Halide Question

[ReefCowboy]

I just saw your video on the Giesmann Vervve last night and it really piqued my curiosity. There's almost no information about it other than your single video though. Seems like it has a lot of potential from a design, feature and price perspective. Have you had any feedback on those or been experimenting with one?

I was also very interested in the Vervve, and was able to read some german forums that tested that fixture in more depth. I was a bit confused because the tester(Ronny Schopke) is some sort of Sanjay from Germany and his coments were not too good about the Vervve.

He stated the par and spectrum were different from Giesemann's claims. The light had claims to have under 400nm peaks and that was not backed by the tests. The par also ended up being lower than what the specs listed.

I emailed BRS and asked if these concerns had any validity, since BRS claims they also tested the spectrum backing Giesemann's claims(BRS Video).
I never heard back from BRS which i found weird.

 

[dz6t]

IMHO halides/t5's if plug and play coral growth/health is the priority.

LED's if phone apps, dimming, on demand color adjustment, removing bulb replacement and reducing heat are the priority.

Ryan:
You are right but what you said basically kill off LED as an option for serious reefers.
People who prioritize phone apps, dimming, on demand color adjustment over growth/health of coral should pick up another hobby.:lmao:

 

[Wazzel]

You can get color and health from LED lights. It is not something you give up for the LED controllability.

 

[dz6t]

Perceived long term savings are so rarely realized. More offan than not there is an upgrade, exspantion, failure, unexpected cost or the tank comes down before long term savings are realized.

I think it is really hard these days for people to buy halides or t5 because they just seem outdated and uncool. However within the advanced reefer circles so many are going back that it's becoming a status symbol or retro cool to go back what just works rather than focus on cool technology.

LEDs can work and I'm having a lot of success personally but for a tightly packed sps tank there are a ton of concerns that need to be concidered and managed where Halides and t5's can be plugged in and done.

Very well said, Ryan!
For my tightly packed SPS displays, I am still using Metal halide and t5.
LED work great on frag tank, while the frag are still small. When they because small colonies, I move them under halide and t5.

 

[zeemofree]

Just to give you an idea of how kessil approaches this we took some spectrum images of all the spectrum settings on the Kessil AP700. The first one is the blue spectrum they say is designed for ideal coral growth. Then you can see how that doesn't change much as they add the other colors in for visual appeal. You will notice the some of the blue spectrum appears to be reduced but thats because this is a relative intensity messurement and it goes down relative to the other spectrums being turned up. <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0019_zpsod8fun1y.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0019_zpsod8fun1y.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0019_zpsod8fun1y.jpg"/></a><a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0018_zpstel0u0xd.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0018_zpstel0u0xd.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0018_zpstel0u0xd.jpg"/></a><a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0017_zpslsgbqbxt.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0017_zpslsgbqbxt.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0017_zpslsgbqbxt.jpg"/></a> <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0016_zps8cxojimx.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0016_zps8cxojimx.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0016_zps8cxojimx.jpg"/></a><a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0015_zpse6m5kd44.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0015_zpse6m5kd44.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0015_zpse6m5kd44.jpg"/></a><a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0014_zpsfkfze2ov.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0014_zpsfkfze2ov.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0014_zpsfkfze2ov.jpg"/></a> <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0013_zpsjffqfjp5.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0013_zpsjffqfjp5.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0013_zpsjffqfjp5.jpg"/></a><a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0012_zpsa6s0ho3e.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0012_zpsa6s0ho3e.jpg" width="400" height="300" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0012_zpsa6s0ho3e.jpg"/></a><a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/IMG_0011_zpso0a16oqz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/IMG_0011_zpso0a16oqz.jpg" width="400" height="300"border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0011_zpso0a16oqz.jpg"/></a>

Love your YouTube channel by the way, I chose the Kessil for several reasons, one is my plasma lights are too large for my current tank, and because they seem to provide a coral loving spectrum the ought the whole range of colors, you spectacle analysis matches what my eyes see. I have been out of the hobby for a few years and have been waiting patiently for for and LED, halides and T5s are the golden standard no doubt about that I love that you can really pace parts for them and they are stocked everywhere, LED goes and your screwed on getting it going again,

 

[Snarkys]

You won't find much info on it because it's not a radion, hydra, or kessil. Lights from companies outside the US do not get any attention in these boards which is a shame. It's a light superior than the above 3 though.

I think that's because they are generally more expensive, warranty/parts are harder, and Europeans prefer fixtures and the US market prefer modules.

Most imported products have to deal with an additional layer of distribution costs and the Euro impact. However the Vervve is less expensive than most of the comparable options. Even more so when you consider you don't need additional accessories to control it. Maybe that will help it catch on over time.

I also think this is an example of how European manufactures are recognising they need to make modules be successful here. Honestly, I don't know why the US market likes modules so much. IMHO modules just come with extra cords, have spread intensity issues and require ugly hanging bracket kits to string them into what is essentially a fixture anyways.

Imported lighting options have a bad rap with long term warranty and parts however with coral vue acting as the distribution and warranty partner here in the US that should be a lot better.

I think European equipment will always have some significant challenges entering our market but many of the best brands find a way. Tunze, Hydor, Vertex, Sicce, Red Sea, KZ, Fauna, HW. With many of these brands is what they did first that the rest of the industry did later.

 

[Snarkys]

I was also very interested in the Vervve, and was able to read some german forums that tested that fixture in more depth. I was a bit confused because the tester(Ronny Schopke) is some sort of Sanjay from Germany and his comments were not too good about the Vervve.

He stated the par and spectrum were different from Giesemann's claims. The light had claims to have under 400nm peaks and that was not backed by the tests. The par also ended up being lower than what the specs listed.

I emailed BRS and asked if these concerns had any validity, since BRS claims they also tested the spectrum backing Giesemann's claims(BRS Video).
I never heard back from BRS which i found weird.

I am not familiar with the testing you mention but I can share what we saw when we tested it. First off there is a significant difference between the initial units sold in Europe and what ultimately ended up in the US. The US versions and what I presume is now being sold in the EU has a much higher PAR because of some changes to how the quad chips are powered.

I personally don't even look at the manufacturer's claims on PAR output anymore because there are so many ways to manipulate those numbers. Almost all of the tests are done in air which has no meaning to us, most of them produce way more light than we need anyways so while it is a sales point it isn't really the most important element these days.

We did run a test in a 90 cube which is 30" x 30" and took measurements in saltwater at 18", 12" and 6" deep. The par did end up being lower than some of the other lights we tested, but I think it might be wiser to evaluate based on your needs rather than the highest possible because in most cases 500, 1,000 or 10,000 is all the same when you are forced to turn it down. These results are certainly very similar to many halide/t5 combos we have tested. These are the numbers we got

<a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/file2_zpsbsgjgz7i.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/file2_zpsbsgjgz7i.jpeg" style="width:304px;height:228px; border="0" alt=" photo file2_zpsbsgjgz7i.jpeg"/></a> <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/file_zpsyhbxj0xu.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/file_zpsyhbxj0xu.jpeg" style="width:304px;height:228px; border="0" alt=" photo file_zpsyhbxj0xu.jpeg"/></a> <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/file1_zpswwm4zcph.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/file1_zpswwm4zcph.jpeg" style="width:304px;height:228px; border="0" alt=" photo file1_zpswwm4zcph.jpeg"/></a>

In our spectrum tests, using a MK350s spectrometer we saw a spike on the UV channel at ~400 and we also found it to be the widest blue spectrum of any light I can recall. It also had more actual blue channels than most competitors which gives you much more finite control over where the main spectrum spikes are once you tune the light.

<a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-07%20at%207.29.29%20AM_zps3ifjzqlh.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-07%20at%207.29.29%20AM_zps3ifjzqlh.png" style="width:300px;height:400px border="0" alt=" photo Screen Shot 2016-08-07 at 7.29.29 AM_zps3ifjzqlh.png"/></a> <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-07%20at%207.28.26%20AM_zps9hmtms9a.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-07%20at%207.28.26%20AM_zps9hmtms9a.png" style="width:300px;height:400px border="0" alt=" photo Screen Shot 2016-08-07 at 7.28.26 AM_zps9hmtms9a.png"/></a>


As to your email, I apologise for the lack of response. As you can imagine some of this goes a bit beyond what the average CS agent knows about the product. Sometimes these things get lost in the shuffle as they go ask multiple people for a detailed answer. End of the day almost all of these modules are pretty darn similar in terms of what they do and the results you are going to achieve with them. I think you are often just best off finding the one that represents the best value, feature set and you feel looks best on your tank. We did a pretty detailed review on the light a few months ago which I think shares a lot about this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK56iQ2IrYQ

 

[ealzaln]

I couldn't tell you the poser's situation, but less heat from the halides means the chiller runs less and the house a/c runs less. There may also be a tiered pricing structure at play.

 

[L8Braker]

Hey Ryan have you ever seen a tank with a mix of MH and LED? And I don't mean cheap lunar LED's. I have a 300 DD looking to replace my front 3 leds (I have 6 Aquaticlife Halo's) with Metal Halides as the main source of light and then use the rear 3 Halo's for accent/moonlight etc. I figure this would be the best of both worlds without having T5's. Curious on your thoughts.

Also I'm intentionally keeping the rear 6-8" of my tank dimly lit to give my tank more of a infinite depth feel. The background is dark blue and the rear 3 halo's are angled slightly toward the front. The rears are only running around 40% max vs the fronts at 70%. This tank is newer and just about to start adding corals.

 

[Snarkys]

Hey Ryan have you ever seen a tank with a mix of MH and LED? And I don't mean cheap lunar LED's. I have a 300 DD looking to replace my front 3 leds (I have 6 Aquaticlife Halo's) with Metal Halides as the main source of light and then use the rear 3 Halo's for accent/moonlight etc. I figure this would be the best of both worlds without having T5's. Curious on your thoughts.

Also I'm intentionally keeping the rear 6-8" of my tank dimly lit to give my tank more of a infinite depth feel. The background is dark blue and the rear 3 halo's are angled slightly toward the front. The rears are only running around 40% max vs the fronts at 70%. This tank is newer and just about to start adding corals.

On occasion but this is normally done to achieve a specific goal of some type. The reason why the halide T5 hybrid was so effective is because it emulated the sun and sky so well. The T5's provided a nice even blanket of light which is really hard to shadow. The halide bulb creates a more directional source of light, the large reflectors adds fill light which helps with shadows as well and the shimmer lines from the bulb create magnified pulses of light. I think this video explains some of the concepts pretty well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR0FaKu35q0

So in your case will the Halo's provide some fill light and reduce shadows? To some degree they will but not as well as T5 bulbs. If you already own them you might as well try it as long as it ends up visually appealing.

From a purely visual aspect, one of the reasons why Halide/T5 and even LED/T5 hybrids are so popular is because the T5's soften the shimmer and make it much more natural looking. Most halide installations will benefit from this but some bulb types and reflectors need it more than others. However almost every LED shimmer has some degree of disco effect and will absolutely benifit visually from taming it with T5's.

 

[L8Braker]

Thanks a ton Ryan!!!! Makes sense. I do already have them so I was gonna try it out anyways. I should post up a build thread with my tank :idea: that way people can see the idea/current state.

 

[hkgar]

I have gone from LED's, I went with AI and progressed through Sol and each intermediate genration to Hydra 52. When I moved from my 90 to a 180 I could never duplicate the success I have with LED's over my 90. At the end I had 5 Ai Hydra 52's over my 180.

I then switched to MH and was very happy with the results. I got better color and growth. I next added 4 80 t5's (2 in front and 2 in back) and color improved but not much noticeable change in growth.

I have now gone completely to t5, 8 80 ATI. I am very happy with the growth, color and the tank has less heat and the electric bill is down (1070 watts down to 640)

 

[ReefCowboy]

I am not familiar with the testing you mention but I can share what we saw when we tested it. First off there is a significant difference between the initial units sold in Europe and what ultimately ended up in the US. The US versions and what I presume is now being sold in the EU has a much higher PAR because of some changes to how the quad chips are powered.

I personally don't even look at the manufacturer's claims on PAR output anymore because there are so many ways to manipulate those numbers. Almost all of the tests are done in air which has no meaning to us, most of them produce way more light than we need anyways so while it is a sales point it isn't really the most important element these days.

We did run a test in a 90 cube which is 30" x 30" and took measurements in saltwater at 18", 12" and 6" deep. The par did end up being lower than some of the other lights we tested, but I think it might be wiser to evaluate based on your needs rather than the highest possible because in most cases 500, 1,000 or 10,000 is all the same when you are forced to turn it down. These results are certainly very similar to many halide/t5 combos we have tested. These are the numbers we got

<a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/file2_zpsbsgjgz7i.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/file2_zpsbsgjgz7i.jpeg" style="width:304px;height:228px; border="0" alt=" photo file2_zpsbsgjgz7i.jpeg"/></a> <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/file_zpsyhbxj0xu.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/file_zpsyhbxj0xu.jpeg" style="width:304px;height:228px; border="0" alt=" photo file_zpsyhbxj0xu.jpeg"/></a> <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/file1_zpswwm4zcph.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/file1_zpswwm4zcph.jpeg" style="width:304px;height:228px; border="0" alt=" photo file1_zpswwm4zcph.jpeg"/></a>

In our spectrum tests, using a MK350s spectrometer we saw a spike on the UV channel at ~400 and we also found it to be the widest blue spectrum of any light I can recall. It also had more actual blue channels than most competitors which gives you much more finite control over where the main spectrum spikes are once you tune the light.

<a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-07%20at%207.29.29%20AM_zps3ifjzqlh.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-07%20at%207.29.29%20AM_zps3ifjzqlh.png" style="width:300px;height:400px border="0" alt=" photo Screen Shot 2016-08-07 at 7.29.29 AM_zps3ifjzqlh.png"/></a> <a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SnarkysBRS/media/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-07%20at%207.28.26%20AM_zps9hmtms9a.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/SnarkysBRS/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-07%20at%207.28.26%20AM_zps9hmtms9a.png" style="width:300px;height:400px border="0" alt=" photo Screen Shot 2016-08-07 at 7.28.26 AM_zps9hmtms9a.png"/></a>


As to your email, I apologise for the lack of response. As you can imagine some of this goes a bit beyond what the average CS agent knows about the product. Sometimes these things get lost in the shuffle as they go ask multiple people for a detailed answer. End of the day almost all of these modules are pretty darn similar in terms of what they do and the results you are going to achieve with them. I think you are often just best off finding the one that represents the best value, feature set and you feel looks best on your tank. We did a pretty detailed review on the light a few months ago which I think shares a lot about this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK56iQ2IrYQ

Ryan,

Thank you for the reply. I must say your videos give us hobbyists lots of peace of mind when making purchasing decisions for the hobby. I do recall reading that the german review of the Vervves were possibly on a unit with different finish and leds as the final, consumer ready one.

It could be they added more leds or better finished the product before it hit the market. Im still very interested in them, and think they might be a much better option than the Radions.

Too bad Giesemann doesnt invest in much marketing in the US...this light woukd be a killer if people heard more about it.
Im still interested.

 

[ca1ore]

Trying to work through cost savings with LED is tricky. On my tank, I do see a lower energy consumption during the hotter months because I don't need to run a chiller anymore, but during the Winter it's a push because my heaters run a lot more.

 

[Wazzel]

Trying to work through cost savings with LED is tricky. On my tank, I do see a lower energy consumption during the hotter months because I don't need to run a chiller anymore, but during the Winter it's a push because my heaters run a lot more.

It is also not uniform across the country because of utility rates, environmental conditions and how people choose to heat and cool their homes. Not having to run a chiller and fans is a big plus for me.

 

[sleepydoc]

Yes, there's no universal answer. In general, heating is more efficient than A/C and A chiller hits you twice - power for the chiller and power for the A/C get rid of the heat the chiller puts out. In general, it's also more efficient to heat the tank than the entire room. In aggregate, if you have to run your A/C for any significant portion of the year you'll likely come out ahead. Just how much is open for discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gus6464]

I have solar. Bring on the watts.

 

[Wazzel]

Yes, there's no universal answer. In general, heating is more efficient than A/C and A chiller hits you twice - power for the chiller and power for the A/C get rid of the heat the chiller puts out. In general, it's also more efficient to heat the tank than the entire room. In aggregate, if you have to run your A/C for any significant portion of the year you'll likely come out ahead. Just how much is open for discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I live in SE Louisiana. Our AC runs at least 9 months a year. It is also always humid. Not having extra heat and humidity in the house from the tank helps a bit.

 

[rlhanks]

My two cents. I'm going halides and I'm looking at the posts related to them. My first thought was LED because the cost savings that always goes with "LED". True they will save you per month but wait a minute, is there a quality LED unit out there that isn't $700-800 bucks that matches a 250 halide? The full length 60" are well over $1000. Now, all of the LED fixtures hanging over tanks are going to eventually die sometime, so by the time you recoup your money it will be time to replace them any ways.

All the whistles and bells of controllability are great but are they necessary? I'm sure I'd love it, for the first month, eventually I'd lose interest. My main concern is having people look at what's inside the glass box not what's over or under it. And halides have proven that they work. Also, here in Michigan the furnace runs from October through April. Heating is costly with electricity no matter how you do it.

Funding for this hobby is supplied by our friends at Generous Motors

 

[karimwassef]

Sanjay made the same comment. He lives in PA so running halides. He recycles the heat as it warms up in his home and reduces his heating bill. IMO LED works if you need small sources with high light density, or if you live in a very warm region and cooling is the dominant expenditure.

I think the closer you are to natural sources of energy (not electricity), the better... so, I'm going for a sunroom and gas heating in the winter. Both are closer to the true source- the sun- than electricity that is at least one or two degrees away.

I am adding high light density LED UV sources, but that's because they don't block the sunlight and I need to add back the blue that the sunroom glass removes.