leds and LPS color changes
- Thread starter victor escobar
- Start date
Im interested in your ratio with the reds included as well as the LED layout you have come up with, guessing this is a DIY fixture
The lay out is this:
front
6 3w cree led strip all RB
ecoxotic stunner 6w magenta
6 3w cree led strip 3 CW, 3 RB
ecoxotic stunner 6w violet 403nm
ecoxotic stunner 6w 8k white, RB
6 3w cree led strip all RB
The RB is 15 cree 3w
CW is 3 cree 3w and an 8k stunner strip.
The red is not really red but a magenta stunner from eco.
Colors all improved when I returned to less intense lighting but the reds did not come all the way back. Pinks and purples came back quite well. Also SPS looked good but growth slowed.
I thought that by returning to higher intensity I could keep the sps happy but, by reducing the number of CWs and adding the magenta and violet maybe the reds would return and the Lps still grow and stay colorfull.
It is not perfect but it is definitely the best combo I have tried on this little
10g nano. I posted pics last week in the nano tank section. Here is one or two. The red acans in front are continuing to improve in color and growth/ multiplying. The red chalice w/ green eyes is growing and is more rosey and less orange. Excuse the poor photos. I do not know how to adjust the camera.
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TropTrea
New member
I Just happened upon this thread and feel it points to something I suspected since the initial introduction of LED lighting.
Years ago I did extensive research in lighting and one thing that I found was that the light spectrum of most LED lights at the time were extremly narrow spectrumed. As in example a 550 nm LED produced virtualy nothing shorter than 540 nm or longer than 560 while a florescent bulb with simply one phosphate blend targeted for 550 nm actualy produced 40% of it light at wave lenghts longer than 560 nm or shorter than 540 nm.
With the "white" LEDS they basicly balanced the output between three frequencies that the eye is most sensative to mainly red, green, and blue. For different color temps they simply shifted the ratios at these frequencies.
When the LEDs first came out for aquariums I feared that they would be strong in several wavelenghts year weaker in other required by corals for good coral growth as well as coloration. Corals contain various photosensative chemicals each which require light at a specific frequency if these frequencies are not available in adequate quantities these chemicals deminish and other photosensative chemicals present that have the proper wave lenght light available to them start dominating. This can causes changes in the corals growth as well as the corals over all color.
Now I was assured that the newer LEDs no longer have these tight wave lenght ranges but I seriously doubt that they are as wide as florescent butlbs and most Hide bulbs. Hearing simular comment from several sources to thae listed here increase my suspicions.
What would be great is if someone with a light spectrum anylizer actualy plotted out the wave lenghts of these newer LEDs that are frequently used in the Aquarium trade today. This would easily prove my suspicions either correct or incorrect. With some accurate plots of the Various LED's it would also make it much easier to select bulbs for particuar situations and even if my suspicions are correct allow for a slection that would be the best for the individuals needs.
Years ago I did extensive research in lighting and one thing that I found was that the light spectrum of most LED lights at the time were extremly narrow spectrumed. As in example a 550 nm LED produced virtualy nothing shorter than 540 nm or longer than 560 while a florescent bulb with simply one phosphate blend targeted for 550 nm actualy produced 40% of it light at wave lenghts longer than 560 nm or shorter than 540 nm.
With the "white" LEDS they basicly balanced the output between three frequencies that the eye is most sensative to mainly red, green, and blue. For different color temps they simply shifted the ratios at these frequencies.
When the LEDs first came out for aquariums I feared that they would be strong in several wavelenghts year weaker in other required by corals for good coral growth as well as coloration. Corals contain various photosensative chemicals each which require light at a specific frequency if these frequencies are not available in adequate quantities these chemicals deminish and other photosensative chemicals present that have the proper wave lenght light available to them start dominating. This can causes changes in the corals growth as well as the corals over all color.
Now I was assured that the newer LEDs no longer have these tight wave lenght ranges but I seriously doubt that they are as wide as florescent butlbs and most Hide bulbs. Hearing simular comment from several sources to thae listed here increase my suspicions.
What would be great is if someone with a light spectrum anylizer actualy plotted out the wave lenghts of these newer LEDs that are frequently used in the Aquarium trade today. This would easily prove my suspicions either correct or incorrect. With some accurate plots of the Various LED's it would also make it much easier to select bulbs for particuar situations and even if my suspicions are correct allow for a slection that would be the best for the individuals needs.
victor escobar
New member
I agree with Trop Trea. The whole issue is about the needs of corals and the fact that leds have a very narrow espectrum. Even with the new leds the issue is not resolved because they can have different picks at differet wavelegths but we have many different especies of corals in our tanks and some of them need more of one or more of another.
I do not think it is related with fotosyntesis even if there arezooxantellae that need some of the blue espectrum and other some of the red.
I tink it is more about other pigments that make the coral to have especial colors. In fact when I decided to put a reptiles fluorescent (T8-30Watts)the reason was to concentrate in the lack of UV espectrum in the led's setting by introducing a curve of wavelegths in the UVa and UVB part.
There is something that is very important in reptiles setups and this is that the reptiles will definetely die if the light in not suplemented with UVA and UVB lights they need to synthetise vitamins. I imagine corals should have the same problem in the long term (as reptiles) and that is the reason for my experiment.
Of course as humans exposed to UVA and UVB corals should change colors in order to protect themselves from the radiation and this is exactly the role of certain coral pigments.
This has nothing to do with the colors you see that of course and always are linked to the reflection of certain wavelegths but we should not forget that a red coral when recently intruduced in a tank with leds is still red but shift to the orange after sometime in the tank. (not all especies shift to orange my experience is with cynarina, blastomussa, lobophyllia, scolymia, acanthastrea, chalices)(other corals like acropora, montipora zooantus will remain red)
I do not think it is related with fotosyntesis even if there arezooxantellae that need some of the blue espectrum and other some of the red.
I tink it is more about other pigments that make the coral to have especial colors. In fact when I decided to put a reptiles fluorescent (T8-30Watts)the reason was to concentrate in the lack of UV espectrum in the led's setting by introducing a curve of wavelegths in the UVa and UVB part.
There is something that is very important in reptiles setups and this is that the reptiles will definetely die if the light in not suplemented with UVA and UVB lights they need to synthetise vitamins. I imagine corals should have the same problem in the long term (as reptiles) and that is the reason for my experiment.
Of course as humans exposed to UVA and UVB corals should change colors in order to protect themselves from the radiation and this is exactly the role of certain coral pigments.
This has nothing to do with the colors you see that of course and always are linked to the reflection of certain wavelegths but we should not forget that a red coral when recently intruduced in a tank with leds is still red but shift to the orange after sometime in the tank. (not all especies shift to orange my experience is with cynarina, blastomussa, lobophyllia, scolymia, acanthastrea, chalices)(other corals like acropora, montipora zooantus will remain red)
haysanatar
New member
I know I tried to spread out my lighting spectrum as much as possible.
I used a mixture of royal blue, cool blue, warm white, neutral white, and cool white. ( i have some deep reds leds that I haven't wired in yet and I am looking for some good violet ones) at first my reds were amazingly brilliant. Way brighter than they had ever appeared.. it was like being punched in the eyes with a neon red. Now my reds do appear more of a redish orange. They still look good, and my oranges look amazing almost a neon gold.
I used a mixture of royal blue, cool blue, warm white, neutral white, and cool white. ( i have some deep reds leds that I haven't wired in yet and I am looking for some good violet ones) at first my reds were amazingly brilliant. Way brighter than they had ever appeared.. it was like being punched in the eyes with a neon red. Now my reds do appear more of a redish orange. They still look good, and my oranges look amazing almost a neon gold.
jc-reef
New member
I already did on post #37 from this thread. That post was taken from another post in the advanced or DYI (I believe) forum. Just click the links in that post and you will see many of the current LED's tested under a spectrometer. He even gave a link to the spectrometer used.
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JHawlz9989
New member
Increase drive current, raise fixture?
Increase drive current, raise fixture?
If increasing the drive current gives you a greater percentage of reds and greens, why not raise the current and raise the fixture? I'm not sure how high you would have to raise it if you increased the current from 700mA to 3A, but would that be a viable solution? Would it drastically reduce the life of the LEDs?
Josh
Increase drive current, raise fixture?
If increasing the drive current gives you a greater percentage of reds and greens, why not raise the current and raise the fixture? I'm not sure how high you would have to raise it if you increased the current from 700mA to 3A, but would that be a viable solution? Would it drastically reduce the life of the LEDs?
Josh
possys
New member
I had the same problem with my Red corals becoming more orange and lost color after 8months of using LEDs. All of other color in my tank was vibrant. I change back to T5. It not just because the coral color was changed. The LED break dawn after 4 months and new replacement break dawn after 4 months again... I still think that the LED will be great lighting fixture for reef tank but I'll wait for 2 more years for better LED and price.
TropTrea
New member
Years ago I did some research on the peak frequencies required by corals, and some of the less advisable frequencies. The most impoortant frequencies I found were.
417 nm 436 nm 447nm 452 nm in the UV to Blue Range
475 nm 485 nm in the Green Range
625 nm 655 nm in the Red Range
Undesirable that has a tendecy to promote Cyno Bacteria growth were
565 nm and 685 nm visably in the yellow and red range
Now White Lighting is tuned to three frequencies which the eye is most sensative to namely 435nm for Blue, 535 nm for green and 580 nm for red. As a result some of the frequencies used by corals are not always available in the ratio the corals would like to see them.
Yes there are both photoshythesis as well as pigment chemicals in the coral. The pigment corals are there mainly to take light an particular wave lenghts and bend it to other frequencies that are used by other chemicials for photosynthesis. These pigments in corals can absorb light at 450 nm and bend it so the chemical requiring light at 485 nm gets enough light. In this priocess you also get the physicial appearance of the coral glowing or a neon appearance at that frequency. These most frequently occur in the shorter wave lenghts but can occur at almost any wave lenght. Other pigment simply reflect light back at the a said wave lenght which is usualy a wave lenght that some of the phorosynthesis chemicals require.
So in reality even though there are a half dozen target wavelenghts for photosynthesis when it comes to color there is probably another two dozen wave lenghts that are required.
As several people mentioned each coral is unique in what wave lengts will give it its maximium growth and coloration. If you had a tank that was specific for one type of coral in one color odds are you could get great results with only 4 or 5 specific wave lengts of light in the right intensities. However most of us have a variety of corals and therefore the wider the spectrum usualy the better.
417 nm 436 nm 447nm 452 nm in the UV to Blue Range
475 nm 485 nm in the Green Range
625 nm 655 nm in the Red Range
Undesirable that has a tendecy to promote Cyno Bacteria growth were
565 nm and 685 nm visably in the yellow and red range
Now White Lighting is tuned to three frequencies which the eye is most sensative to namely 435nm for Blue, 535 nm for green and 580 nm for red. As a result some of the frequencies used by corals are not always available in the ratio the corals would like to see them.
Yes there are both photoshythesis as well as pigment chemicals in the coral. The pigment corals are there mainly to take light an particular wave lenghts and bend it to other frequencies that are used by other chemicials for photosynthesis. These pigments in corals can absorb light at 450 nm and bend it so the chemical requiring light at 485 nm gets enough light. In this priocess you also get the physicial appearance of the coral glowing or a neon appearance at that frequency. These most frequently occur in the shorter wave lenghts but can occur at almost any wave lenght. Other pigment simply reflect light back at the a said wave lenght which is usualy a wave lenght that some of the phorosynthesis chemicals require.
So in reality even though there are a half dozen target wavelenghts for photosynthesis when it comes to color there is probably another two dozen wave lenghts that are required.
As several people mentioned each coral is unique in what wave lengts will give it its maximium growth and coloration. If you had a tank that was specific for one type of coral in one color odds are you could get great results with only 4 or 5 specific wave lengts of light in the right intensities. However most of us have a variety of corals and therefore the wider the spectrum usualy the better.
victor escobar
New member
After 2 weeks using the reptiles T8 I do not see any difference in the colors of corals but on a ricordea that is shifting to a more redish orange and trachiphyllia getting more colored (now they are a very light blue and are becomeing more multicolor as the were six months ago).
On the other hand the corals close to the fluorescent light (the ones that changed dramaticly to the orange and then to the brown have suffered the UV light and herefore I had to turn on the lights on only for two hours a day as a precautionary measure. I do not want to burn corals that becanme defenseless due to the lack of UV wavelengths for six months).
On the other hand the corals close to the fluorescent light (the ones that changed dramaticly to the orange and then to the brown have suffered the UV light and herefore I had to turn on the lights on only for two hours a day as a precautionary measure. I do not want to burn corals that becanme defenseless due to the lack of UV wavelengths for six months).
haysanatar
New member
I'm curious to see what a high range violet would do they have some that spill into uv. (plus I like the purplish actanic look)
victor escobar
New member
The situation ow with the reptiles fluorescent is that the recordea color became much more strong and the lobophyllia is startint to color up. The cvhanges are slow but the trend is really positive.
Useful_Idiot
Artificially Intelligent
bump
bump
any updates? I ended up adding 2 t5s to my 2 AI's and got my reds back. I would love to use led supplements instead though. These took a turn for the worse don't you think? leds seem to bring out yellows that didn't seem to be there.
under leds
with the t5 supplementing
bump
any updates? I ended up adding 2 t5s to my 2 AI's and got my reds back. I would love to use led supplements instead though. These took a turn for the worse don't you think? leds seem to bring out yellows that didn't seem to be there.
under leds
with the t5 supplementing
TropTrea
New member
The way corals appear is a combination of two things mainly reflective light and florescent light. The florescent light is what makes many of them so stunning and beautiful.
For reflective light your correct what you see is the wave lengths they do not absorb but instead what they are reflecting. However all light that the absorb is not necessarily utilized to build the coral. some of it is actually harmful especially light in the 685 nm wave length and light below 380 nm. Some corals need a limited amount of this light but in excess it will burn them.
Florescent light is a completely different animal. There are over 100 known chemicals in corals that fluoresce. Each of these chemicals absorb light at a specific frequency and emit light an another specific frequency. While more than half of these florescent chemicals are excited by light in the range of 415 nm to 460 nm these are not the only frequencies that excite these chemicals to fluoresce. about 98 % of them are excited by wave lenghts between 380 nm and 655 nm. The biggest thing though is the florescensing wave length is always a longer wave length than what is excited. In some cases the difference is only about 10 nm between excitation and florescence while other chemicals are as much as 130 nm.
An interesting experiment one can do is is light there reef with only a few LEDs of a specific wave length. First 420 nm, then 454 nm. 460 nm and finally 500 nm. After this light is on for an hour in an otherwise dark room you will see which of your corals have chemicals that are excited by that particular of the spectrum. If none are excited and fluorescing than you will need to add any light in that frequency range.
Also keep in mind that most corals have an average of three different florescent chemicals in them. so if a coral fluoresces at 420 nm it may also fluoresce at 460 nm only the florescence will be a different color to your eye.
TropTrea
New member
What kind of LED's are you running at what current? I have heard of people running them now for years without a break down. Cree just announced that there XM will run extended periods of time at 1,000 ma while prior they recommended them to run at 700 ma. Also what kind of heat sinks and colling do you have for your LEDs? As with any electronic device heat is the biggest culprit of problems with them. Running at 1,000ma they recommend at least 16 square inches of heat sink per LED. If your just using plate aluminum you have two sides acting as a heat sink but should be spacing the LED's about 3" apart with fans you can cut that distance down a little.
haysanatar
New member
If there is a lack of red fluorescence maybe the culprit ins't a lack of red in the light.... the color that that is fluoresced is of a lower energy than what is abosrbed correct? so isn't it possible that it could be a lack in the yellow or orange areas?
also if it was a change in fluorescence and not a change in pigmentation due so another factor wouldnt the changes be more immediate, rather than over several months as most people have noticed.
also if it was a change in fluorescence and not a change in pigmentation due so another factor wouldnt the changes be more immediate, rather than over several months as most people have noticed.
TropTrea
New member
Remeber a few things.
The colors we see in forals is both reflective light and florescent light. Florescent light is created by chemocals that absorb one wave lenght of light and emit light at another wave lenght.
The exciting wavelenght of corals varries between corals there are basicly 100's of different chemicals in corals each with there specific wave lenght that they absorb. If there is no light at the wave lenght that they are absorbing then they will not floresce. Some corals have multiple colred florescent chemicals and need multiple wave lenghts.
LED Lights are a basicly narrow spectrum lights which helps them create more intensity at a set wave lenght. As an example a Royal Blue LED may be most intens at 454 nm but only produces 1/4 as much light at 435 and 460 nm. Yet a T-5 bulb tuned to 454 nm will peak at 454 nm and produce 25% as much light at 410 nm and 490 nm.
Therefor to reach a wider range of excitation wavelenghts the LED's need both Royal Blues as well as Blue LED's. But still there is an area around 510 nm that LEDs seem to not create enough light regardless of what combination you use.
Now as far as RED's go. In nature corals get very little red light. It has been proven that Red light in the 685 nm range can be very costly to corals in excess. If your corals as not as red as want them and try to increase your red light on them to bring out the red color you may easily be bleaching out the red with to much light at 686 nm. which is in the high end of the red range.
As I'm experimenting with LED's on my corals I starting to think more and more that They would work much better with a mix with probably something like a single ATI Aquablue Special HO T-5 bulb. this would fill in the weak area of LED's mainly around 500 nm.
The colors we see in forals is both reflective light and florescent light. Florescent light is created by chemocals that absorb one wave lenght of light and emit light at another wave lenght.
The exciting wavelenght of corals varries between corals there are basicly 100's of different chemicals in corals each with there specific wave lenght that they absorb. If there is no light at the wave lenght that they are absorbing then they will not floresce. Some corals have multiple colred florescent chemicals and need multiple wave lenghts.
LED Lights are a basicly narrow spectrum lights which helps them create more intensity at a set wave lenght. As an example a Royal Blue LED may be most intens at 454 nm but only produces 1/4 as much light at 435 and 460 nm. Yet a T-5 bulb tuned to 454 nm will peak at 454 nm and produce 25% as much light at 410 nm and 490 nm.
Therefor to reach a wider range of excitation wavelenghts the LED's need both Royal Blues as well as Blue LED's. But still there is an area around 510 nm that LEDs seem to not create enough light regardless of what combination you use.
Now as far as RED's go. In nature corals get very little red light. It has been proven that Red light in the 685 nm range can be very costly to corals in excess. If your corals as not as red as want them and try to increase your red light on them to bring out the red color you may easily be bleaching out the red with to much light at 686 nm. which is in the high end of the red range.
As I'm experimenting with LED's on my corals I starting to think more and more that They would work much better with a mix with probably something like a single ATI Aquablue Special HO T-5 bulb. this would fill in the weak area of LED's mainly around 500 nm.
