LED's with respect to color of Sps corals

[sahin]

This is a nice thread and a nice discussion. I've not been on the forum for a some months and I can see I've got some reading to do. Anyway, I think I will purchase the Maxspect Razor as it is a nice price and the spectral coverage is currently one of the best that LEDs offer combined with a very decent price.

 

[wayne in norway]

(Hello Sahin) - Just some comments - I've tested used one of the older Acan Lighting units, and I prefer the appearance of the newer one - the older one was rather more yellow in the white diodes, and the proportion of white to blue meant I was unable to get a mix I visually like in contrast to newer units. It was very strong tho', though too focussed for my wide tank, and I know people who've used them usccessfully (Sanjay!).

There seems to be a common obsession in many of these threads to maximise what the coral prefers. This is good, but also it needs to look good to the viewer as well. This is why Fiji Purples existed in T5 - there is no benefit to them, andthey're probably an effective drop in PAR as the light is rather unusable, but compared to a tank lit with Blue +'s and Specials many find it more attractive. Too many pink tubes is not a good thing, but one is hardly a crime unless you absolutely are obsessed with optimising your lighting to your corals benefit at the expense of aesthetics. Also , there is currently an obsession with the peak around 400 - 420 nm, but in many very successful T5 tanks that was/is pretty absent. It's nice to have, but not critical i.m.o. Certainly , the merits of a supposedly superior spectrum would not push me to buy an LED that contains a lot of hard driven LEDs jammed into a very small space with form already for running a bit hot. If you ever looked at a detailed plot of a T5 spectrum (presmoothing) it looks really spiky and a long way from full spectrum, but it doesn't seem to do any harm.

I will try to get a screen plot of my radium setup, but it won't be today. I run 20K morning and evening and full whack during the day. I am interested if anyone knows of software that can produce a spectral plot of a tank image (image editing software surely).
As a note most SPS corals I see for sale (and a good 90% of the bright coloured ones) have been maricultured in water about 15m deep rather than being farmed in shallow water. The problem in farming corals in 20ft of water is that wave action will trash the mariculture setup rather frequently.

Also, some comments here.. sorry for the disjointed format of this post... 'They put out as much in that 500-600 as in the 450 range. Not only is the 500-600 range that high not needed by the coral, but it's wasted energy'. The corals need under 20% of that output in that range.............approx what the sun puts out. So if you don't turn that down some corals will bleach.<<Agree, and too much red and yellow can be a real p.i.t.a. for promoting cyano>>

The problem is when you turn that down you lose par & you're also reducing that blue spike. <<But turn them down anyway, or jsut don't out many in in the first place. Most of the PAR you lose is wasted anyway, so no loss there. That blue spike is pretty small as well. Rather than reduce the intensity, just reduce the number in the first place to a small proportion and fill the gaps with useful colours>>

 

[Ted_C]

I'd be very interested to see a spectral graph of the vertex illumina alongside these other fixtures. For such an expensive fixture - I'm surprised this isn't available and is influencing my decision on which LEDs to purchase.

 

[Big E]

This is a nice thread and a nice discussion. I've not been on the forum for a some months and I can see I've got some reading to do. Anyway, I think I will purchase the Maxspect Razor as it is a nice price and the spectral coverage is currently one of the best that LEDs offer combined with a very decent price.

I would suggest for anyone to read this series of articles By Dana Riddle.
It will give you a better understanding of what is needed for spectrum & why some coral colors aren't being produced by LED setups that aren't full spectrum.

It can be dry at times but read it slowly & more than once and it will sink in.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature1
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/2/aafeature1/view
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aafeature
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/aafeature2
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/7/aafeature1

 

[Live Tanks]

Generally speaking a light photon is a light photon add the correct amount of spectrum (wavelengths) and intensity (lumens/watt) and specific lighting is made.....

To sum it up ;-)

Also led units being manufactured usually give a lot more info regarding design and aesthetic positives... Very few give information regarding the light ommiting diode which is pivotal to making an informative decision regarding specimens to be kept which is in relation to intensity and spectrum needs...

As for SPS we all know more intense light is needed for health and growth rates. As for coloration different wavelengths will to get those tri colors to pop under recommended water quality parameters...

As companies ride the led info lacking wave there will be controversy.

A light photon is a light photon..... Just figuring out intensity and spectrum and it's a win!!

 

[sahin]

(Hello Sahin) - Just some comments -
I will try to get a screen plot of my radium setup, but it won't be today. I run 20K morning and evening and full whack during the day. <agree, and="" too="" much="" red="" yellow="" can="" be="" a="" real="" p.i.t.a.="" for="" promoting="" cyano=""><but turn="" them="" down="" anyway,="" or="" jsut="" don't="" out="" many="" in="" the="" first="" place.="" most="" of="" par="" you="" lose="" is="" wasted="" so="" no="" loss="" there.="" that="" blue="" spike="" pretty="" small="" as="" well.="" rather="" than="" reduce="" intensity,="" just="" number="" place="" to="" a="" proportion="" and="" fill="" gaps="" with="" useful="" colours="">

Wayne, any chance of the 20K plot? Would love to see what the plot looks like.

Anyone else have anything else to add to this debate?

- I am now very tempted to place an order for the GHL mitras: It has more or less a similar spectral range as the current Radion with the additional 425nm Actinic LED's as well. Additionally it has NW white LED's and packs 72 LED's into one package with a very good spread.

My tanks area is 30"x20"; the Mitras covers this perfectly.

I have just set up my tank once again after almost quitting due to ill health and other life stuff. My T5's are overdue for replacement.

Its just that the Mitras seems to be the best out there currently in terms of spectral range and coverage with a sufficient PAR levels...

The only thing holding me back is if SPS colours are not as good as my current lights, then its a lot of money...wasted?
</but></agree,>

 

[thelizardkin]

What about adjustable led strip lights they're only $20ish on ebay and they come with a remote that you can adjust the color and you get prebuilt color settings and you make a custom color they may not work as a primary light but they can supplement colors it's also dimmable and water proof

 

[sahin]

What about adjustable led strip lights they're only $20ish on ebay and they come with a remote that you can adjust the color and you get prebuilt color settings and you make a custom color they may not work as a primary light but they can supplement colors it's also dimmable and water proof

The main agenda of this thread is about the use of LEDs as a primary source of lighting for (sps) corals. In terms of use as supplemental, it's fine.

I was about to order the GHL Mitras....but I am beginning to have doubts. By now I expected to have seen many many sps systems with very good SPS coral colour. But even now, there are only a handful of LED SPS tanks out there with decent colour.

I think I will stick with my T5/LED unit for at least another year.

Maybe Ecotech or GHL will really take a look at the Metal Halide bulbs such as Radium 20K or say the Phoenix 14k under a spectrometer or even look at Sanjays work and produce an LED system that more of less matches those one of those proven spectrums.

No one is close enough yet.

And I think we should be demanding that the likes of Ecotech and GHL produce such LED unit within 1 year! :debi:

 

[TheReefKeeper]

I think I will purchase the Maxspect Razor as it is a nice price and the spectral coverage is currently one of the best that LEDs offer combined with a very decent price.

Did you end up buying the Maxspect? I've also been waiting for some confirmation that the light will hold good SPS colors seems like no one who owns one has posted any pics in a while. If you did buy it what are your thoughts?

 

[sahin]

Did you end up buying the Maxspect? I've also been waiting for some confirmation that the light will hold good SPS colors seems like no one who owns one has posted any pics in a while. If you did buy it what are your thoughts?

That's the thing. Whether it be the AI Vega owners thread or some other LED system owners thread...photos of LED systems are scarce.

No, I didn't buy the Maxspct. I'm going to wait some more......

 

[BrklynArch]

bump for a great thread....any opinions on the new stuff on the market like the radion pro units?

 

[Squidmotron]

Well, looking at the AdvancedAquarist plot of the RadioPro, it now adds an early TrueViolet peak similar to the Radium. It does not have that peak around 540 that the metal halides have. I don't really know how important that portion of the spectrum is. Maybe someone else could speak to that.

I would suspect that these as well as the new custom LED builds that people are doing do a pretty good job of getting all the right colors, though.

 

[GSMguy]

I had to bite my tongue at the LFS the other day, the owner of the shop was telling a customer that "the only light on the market that puts out UV is the Radion pro". I've heard the same guy tell multiple customers to keep their reef tank away from natural sunlight because it causes algae to grow.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I've heard the same guy tell multiple customers to keep their reef tank away from natural sunlight because it causes algae to grow.

Oddly enough, there is a grain of truth to the statement, but only under specific circumstances.

I had red cyano break out in my LED lit tank a few months ago, but only on the one side that received 2-3 hours of sunlight a day. Nutrients were high enough for cyano (obviously), but only certain wavelengths provided by the sunlight spurred the growth. When I kept the blinds closed, the cyano disappeared without any other changes to the tank. Later I allowed sunlight to hit the tank again with the same cyano growth result. I now keep nutrients low enough that sunlight no longer has an effect on cyano growth.

 

[readc]

im gonna bump this thread and post my experience with a Radion...

I have had the Radion up for a year with great growth and colors until I added a blue tort and blue echinata. Both corals have lost their blue coloration and are now a turquoise color, but are still growing.

After a lot of research I am guessing that without the UV spectrum present in my Gen 1 (w/ TIR lens), that the corals are not having to display their protective color proteins to shield itself from harmful UV rays. Blue especially is known as a color specific to corals that require 'sunscreen' to protect themselves from the suns UV rays.

Am I way off here? Has anyone else experience this? Also, I am wondering if upgrading to the pro unit, which has UV spectrum LEDS, would bring the blues back out in these two specific corals?

-Curtis

 

[Big E]

Curtis--

This article will help explain some of what you are asking about.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

I"ve mentioned also quite often that each coral needs a certain spectrum to get the best color/ flourescence for their particular pigments or chromo protens. If the light source doesn't contain that spectrum you aren't going to get the colors you want.

It basically comes down to having full spectrum across your whole tank and a high enough intensity to make that specturm show full effect. The article above explains this well. If a bulb has the correct spectrum it carries across the whole area of the bulbs light..........with LEDs it doesn't because they cast such narrow bands. That's why manufacturers try to cluster the diodes together.

You also need to have enough units over the tank to have the same spectrum throughout the tank to avoid those hot spots and dark gaps.

The worst thing that ever happened in the design of LEDs is that manufacturers allowed the user to dim and change the spectrum to such harsh degrees for the corals to look good to the eye. Again, the article above explains some of that well about our eyes and what we see.

Read this also--

http://capone.mtsu.edu/phys2020/Lectures/Part_1__L1-L5/Lecture_1/EM_Spectrum/em_spectrum.html

The problem with raising or dimming your LEDs is that everytime you do that you are changing the spectrum. It's inherent in the poor way these units are designed or maybe due to the limitations of how to control LEDs.

My best advice to anyone with LEDs is it to try to copy the spectrum layout of the 400w Radium bullb and then raise or lower the LED units. That way you are changing intensity without changing the spectrum.

I believe Kessils new 360 may be the first LED units that are capable of changing intensity without changing spectrum. Their tight multichip designs are also better than diodes that are spread out more. I have no experience with Kessils but have seen the 350s over tanks and they look good but I don't know anything about how they perform long term over Sps.


For you specifically, one option would be to just add a few T5's to fill shadow gaps & to also get the 420nm you want. This would be a lot more inexpensive that to continue to buy next generation LEDs until they finally produce units that can stand alone and color Sps correctly.

You could also look into doing a few Diy strips of LEDs, but if you're going that route, it's important to understand what you're trying to accomplish. A lot of the articles I have linked will help.

Another great article by Dana Riddle---
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/12/corals#disqus_thread

Commercial LED units are slowly getting things right...........the problem is they are taking your money 2 to 3 times over in the mean time.

As far as some of the other newer generation units like the Vegas, Radion Pro, Maxspect Razor. Time will tell.........I'm still waiting on the results. Again best use would be to get the spectrum right and then play with height placement for intensity. What also is going to come into play is getting full coverage........do you have enough units over the tank?

 

[Slawdude]

Well said Big E. They should print your advice on the packaging of LED fittings.

My experience which spans MH, T5 and LED is consistent with this as well.

 

[biecacka]

Following this as I'm about to change out some diodes on my Chinese led fixture and I. Currently looking for best options out there on diodes to out in the fixture

Corey

 

[Big E]

This is an excellant checklist I chery picked a while back............I believe it's "mr. wilson"
that came up with this---------

Here is the criteria we looked at when evaluating LED lighting technology along with some general tips...

1) Make sure the light does not cast weird blue and yellow shadows under rocks and corals.

2) Look for a calming shimmer rather than the rapid flicker that is generated by some LEDs.

3) The light has to look natural, as if it was sunlight, not artificial, cold & clinical like some LEDs and T5.

4) Some emitters have a narrow spectrum and coral pigmentation is lacking in blue, purple and red, but green is vivid. Do a search and find other hobbyists who are using the light and see what their coral colour is like.

5) The CRI (colour rendering index) has to be high so fish and corals look natural and the sand is white, not blue.

6) Take a look at the spectrograph and see if it shows a lot of green & yellow light which is of little use to coral. This wavelength is put there so we recognize it as "bright" light for home and office applications. The green/yellow peak encourages nuisance algae and browns out corals with too much zooxanthellae. This peak lowers the PUR value.

7) The pegboard design creates hot spots and deficiencies with one green here and one red there (Lightbright) configurations. An all-in-one chip is homogenous and much more efficient.

8) Some manufacturers use tight 40˚ optics to fool quantum & LUX meters then use wider 70˚ optics on the outside to make it look like coverage is better (at the cost of intensity).

9) Some lights have a high percentage (often > 50/50) of blue LEDs which also give false high PAR readings.

10) Try to find a fixture that gives you the aesthetic you want for a reasonable price. Some feature heavy models are priced beyond reach and offer features that you may never utilize.

11) As with MHL, find a high kelvin white chip mixed with some blue and perhaps violet emitters for extra punch. A 7,000k LED is no better than using a 7,000k MHL bulb.

12) Pick a manufacturer who is developing new products and moving the technology forward, not just rebranding generic fixtures with standard industry components.

13) Take a look at who is using the product. Are they seasoned reefers with a lot at risk, or are they newbies who are trying products without doing thorough research and experimentation.

14) Review the pictures on the manufacturer's website. Often they are the owners tank and the coral colour is still weak.

15) Pick an adaptable technology where you can upgrade drivers and emitters, as the technology continues to grow, such as multichip LED.

 

[Big E]

These comments go well with the article I recently posted. I might help some people get a better grasp of it's content---

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

" Technically we can classify light in three groups for corals.

Group A is the light that produces the best photosynthesis. From my studies these are the light waves in the range from roughly 420 nm to 500 nm. But each coral species is slightly different. The 454 nm that you mentioned is probably the best for most corals however almost all corals will need some additional light at specific frequencies.

Group B is the florescent spectrum of the corals that so many of us are trying to enhance. This is where the coral (or actually a chemical within the coral absorbs a specific wave of light and then emits lights at a another wave length (usually at at a longer wave length than what it absorbed) For the florescent spectrum it is much wider that the photosynthesis spectrum but does again peak at around 454 nm. These frequencies are much more specific for the florescence and while a particular chemical my fluoresce at 460 nm light at 455 nm or 4654 nm are quite useless for this process. The range of light absorbed for various corals has been been found to range from as short as 404 nm to as long as 620 nm.

Group C is the full spectrum lighting that is mainly for aesthetic effects of the viewer. If you went diving to 600 feet in the ocean you would realize everything looks almost mono-chromatic blue. When underwater photography is taken they use full spectrum lighting that produces those pictures we all find unbelievably colorful. We want to duplicate this color in our aquariums and just the blue light and the florescence from A and B do not do justice to the various abilities of corals and fish to reflect light at various frequencies. Therefore we add full spectrum lighting. But the level if this fill spectrum lighting is very debatable based on personal taste. As we increase the full spectrum lighting it starts to show the fantastic reflective color in underwater life but it also starts washing out some of the effect of the florescence. If we start adding to much full spectrum lighting we also are lighting in ranges that have been proven to bleach out some corals as well as promote some of the unwanted algea especially cyan algae.

So really lighting is not extremely simple as some think. Johnny might have a tank with fantastic coral growth but Jack might look at it and not like the color combinations. Singularly Jack might have a tank showing fantastic Colors but he may be plagued with little or no coral growth. Similarly a lighting combination that may make one coral look and grow fantastic my actually be deadly for another coral that comes from a different level in the ocean."

I believe I pulled it from this massive thread---

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2128756&page=95