Steven Pro
New member
I would have thought the vinyl tubing slipped onto the Kati-Ani would have popped off before the pressure built up enough to crack the hard plastic tube.
let the insanity begin
- Thread starter rick rottet
- Start date
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
jnarowe- not sure about a siphon. Although, the water level in the units seems to get lower and lower as it is running, and occasionally, it practically drains the units fairly quickly...especially when I move the tubing from one barrel to another. When it is running, there always seems to be an air space at the top of the units. When I am recharging or flushing, they stay full. I would have thought a siphon would have created a vacum effect instead of pressure. Heck, maybe it imploded instead of exploded. Right, no CO2. I don't put anything through the units except RO water, then muriatic acid through the kati to recharge, sodium hydroxide to recharge the ani, and tap water to flush.
H20ENG- How's things going out your way?
If there is a clog, I couldn't/ can't see anything. The water has always flown freely as far as I can tell. The clear acrylic canister has 1/8" thick walls. Recharging is done with the media in the canister, they are not supposed to come apart. The instructions say to run the units through with the recharge chemicals.
Steven- Do your units have the water level drop down when they are filtering and leave an air space at the top of the units (so the upper half of the media is not submerged)? or have the water run out of them very quickly at times (especially if the outlet tubing gets moved)?
You might be on to something about the tubing. You know, I never translated the words written on the top caps until today, but it says to not use hose "clips". I have always had clamps on the tubing(s). But still, why would the units build up pressure like that anyway? (esecially when flushing) Isn't the water just running into then right back out of them?
Plus the instructions say they must be "forcefully" flushed.
According to Kip Tani, Aquatechnic does not provide a warranty service for these units. He also does not want to take the hit to give me a new one. I can't blame him for that. I wouldn't want to be in a position of having to give away for free a product that I haven't even received yet. Especially if I was just starting out in a new business. It's not due to any fault of his either and I wouldn't expect him to have to make up for the lack of warranty by taking out of his own pocket... that just wouldn't be right. This may shed some light on why Dr's Foster and Smith stopped carrying this brand of DI. If they had to eat the cost of replacement units or shipping damaged units. They are real big on customer service too, IME. Kip Tani did offer to sell me a new one at dealer cost plus the shipping. He hasn't gotten back to me yet with a total, but I'm sure that it will be pretty close to half of what I paid for both of these units when I bought them. So it looks like I am basically on my own to repair this one.
H20ENG- How's things going out your way?
If there is a clog, I couldn't/ can't see anything. The water has always flown freely as far as I can tell. The clear acrylic canister has 1/8" thick walls. Recharging is done with the media in the canister, they are not supposed to come apart. The instructions say to run the units through with the recharge chemicals.
Steven- Do your units have the water level drop down when they are filtering and leave an air space at the top of the units (so the upper half of the media is not submerged)? or have the water run out of them very quickly at times (especially if the outlet tubing gets moved)?
You might be on to something about the tubing. You know, I never translated the words written on the top caps until today, but it says to not use hose "clips". I have always had clamps on the tubing(s). But still, why would the units build up pressure like that anyway? (esecially when flushing) Isn't the water just running into then right back out of them?
Plus the instructions say they must be "forcefully" flushed.
According to Kip Tani, Aquatechnic does not provide a warranty service for these units. He also does not want to take the hit to give me a new one. I can't blame him for that. I wouldn't want to be in a position of having to give away for free a product that I haven't even received yet. Especially if I was just starting out in a new business. It's not due to any fault of his either and I wouldn't expect him to have to make up for the lack of warranty by taking out of his own pocket... that just wouldn't be right. This may shed some light on why Dr's Foster and Smith stopped carrying this brand of DI. If they had to eat the cost of replacement units or shipping damaged units. They are real big on customer service too, IME. Kip Tani did offer to sell me a new one at dealer cost plus the shipping. He hasn't gotten back to me yet with a total, but I'm sure that it will be pretty close to half of what I paid for both of these units when I bought them. So it looks like I am basically on my own to repair this one.
Hello Rick:
Interesting thread but insane.
I have been using these resin columns for years and never had any problems, but I never let any pressure build in the column. The instructions warn against more than 9 psi so I never clamp my tubing to the column. Better to have a pressure build up pop lose the supply or drain tubing than separate an end cap or blow the resin column.
The air that builds up at the top end of the column comes in with the supply water or from a small leak that draws air into the supply tubing. I install an air trap before the column or simple back flush to remove the air. You lose efficiency if the resin is not completely covered with water. I hate to say this but I always wondered what would happen if the was any pressure buildup in the column.......now I have my answer.
Honybee
Interesting thread but insane.
I have been using these resin columns for years and never had any problems, but I never let any pressure build in the column. The instructions warn against more than 9 psi so I never clamp my tubing to the column. Better to have a pressure build up pop lose the supply or drain tubing than separate an end cap or blow the resin column.
The air that builds up at the top end of the column comes in with the supply water or from a small leak that draws air into the supply tubing. I install an air trap before the column or simple back flush to remove the air. You lose efficiency if the resin is not completely covered with water. I hate to say this but I always wondered what would happen if the was any pressure buildup in the column.......now I have my answer.
Honybee
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
jnarowe- I don't think with the good customer reviews that I got when researching Aquatechnic that they would design a product that would fail just by following the instructions.
honeybee- thanks for the info. Tha pretty much confirms that it was my fault...at least in part.
1) The only paperwork I received when I bought these units was the recharge instructions...
2) I never translated the words on the top of the caps until it was too late. (even though the word "verwenden" followed by an exclamation point made me think of some type of "warning").
live and learn.
does your tubing leak without clamps? ever blow off if some pressure does build up?
honeybee- thanks for the info. Tha pretty much confirms that it was my fault...at least in part.
1) The only paperwork I received when I bought these units was the recharge instructions...
2) I never translated the words on the top of the caps until it was too late. (even though the word "verwenden" followed by an exclamation point made me think of some type of "warning").
live and learn.
does your tubing leak without clamps? ever blow off if some pressure does build up?
Rick:
I went back to the instructions, the exact statement is "max. operating pressure: .5 atmospheres = 7.35 pound/sq. inch" so I was a little high on the pressure.
To make sure there is no pressure build up I use a value in the supply line to regulate the flow rate. I always cut the manufactures flow rate in half so my max is 30 l/hour. The drain tubing is never restricted. To date I have never had enough pressure to blow off the tubing.
I would be interested in getting another Kati so I will be watching to see I you find a US dealer.
Honeybee
I went back to the instructions, the exact statement is "max. operating pressure: .5 atmospheres = 7.35 pound/sq. inch" so I was a little high on the pressure.
To make sure there is no pressure build up I use a value in the supply line to regulate the flow rate. I always cut the manufactures flow rate in half so my max is 30 l/hour. The drain tubing is never restricted. To date I have never had enough pressure to blow off the tubing.
I would be interested in getting another Kati so I will be watching to see I you find a US dealer.
Honeybee
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Kip Tani told me he is a U.S. distributor, but not expecting his first shipment until sometime next month. Aquatechnic verified that as well. Aquatechnic said "we will once again have a U.S. distrbutor" and gave me his email, but he contacted me before I had a chance to contact him.
I'll shoot you a pm with his email.
I run through an RO first, my flow rate is (on a good day with new prefilters) 150 gallons of product water in about 18 hours (roughly 33 liters per hour), so I wasn't exceeding the flow rate. That's good to know. Is there any way you can copy/scan those instructions and email them to me? Would be nice to know what else I should be knowing.
I don't understand (still) how pressure builds up inside the units when there is an open tube from the outlet of the ani unit. Seems like any pressure would vent off through the open tube. I mean water is just running through the unit, not getting trapped in there with no where to go. Of course, I was flushing when it broke, so maybe there was an exceeded flow rate during that time. I guess at this point, it is immaterial. It happened and now it's time to fix it. Just need to figure out what kind of adhesive to use.
I'm sure the main chamber is acrylic, the end caps I'm not too sure about, but I would guess probably a nylon. Anybody know if a cyanoacrylate will work?
I'll shoot you a pm with his email.
I run through an RO first, my flow rate is (on a good day with new prefilters) 150 gallons of product water in about 18 hours (roughly 33 liters per hour), so I wasn't exceeding the flow rate. That's good to know. Is there any way you can copy/scan those instructions and email them to me? Would be nice to know what else I should be knowing.
I don't understand (still) how pressure builds up inside the units when there is an open tube from the outlet of the ani unit. Seems like any pressure would vent off through the open tube. I mean water is just running through the unit, not getting trapped in there with no where to go. Of course, I was flushing when it broke, so maybe there was an exceeded flow rate during that time. I guess at this point, it is immaterial. It happened and now it's time to fix it. Just need to figure out what kind of adhesive to use.
I'm sure the main chamber is acrylic, the end caps I'm not too sure about, but I would guess probably a nylon. Anybody know if a cyanoacrylate will work?
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
and just how are we supposed to know how "forcefully" we can flush these units after a recharge? My tap runs at close to 40 psi, and from what i can gather, that's pretty low compared to many parts of the country.
Are you others with these models flushing with tap pressure after a recharge?
Are you others with these models flushing with tap pressure after a recharge?
melev
Well-known member
When I read it, I thought it translates "Please don't use hose clamps"
You know, you could glue it at the break, if the bottom half is intact as well. Using Weldon #4 & a little bit of #16 would work. And get you running until the new one arrives. Dont glob on #16, as it creates craters as it cures, and shrinks in volume by 33% too.
You know, you could glue it at the break, if the bottom half is intact as well. Using Weldon #4 & a little bit of #16 would work. And get you running until the new one arrives. Dont glob on #16, as it creates craters as it cures, and shrinks in volume by 33% too.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
When I plugged the words into Google language translator, it came back "clips", but it's the same thing/ principle.
Too late for a straight acrylic fix, I already dug out the broken part from the bottom cap. Have to find some sort of adhesive to join the acrylic to whatever kind of plastic the cap is made of.
Too late for a straight acrylic fix, I already dug out the broken part from the bottom cap. Have to find some sort of adhesive to join the acrylic to whatever kind of plastic the cap is made of.
Rick,
I flush using tap water but I never execeed the 60l/hour limit. I also carefully observe the column during a flush and kill the water if there is any change in the discharge rate. At a higher flow rate I am fearful that the resin beads might pack against the screen at the top and cause a pressure build up. If you exceed the pressure or flow rate over time any small flaw in the plastic (column or cap) could result in a catastrophic failure. Since you heard a "pop" when the column failured I would guess there was some kind of pressure build up in the unit. Your experience seems to support my belief that one should always use caution and cut in half the claims of any manufacture.
Honeybee
I flush using tap water but I never execeed the 60l/hour limit. I also carefully observe the column during a flush and kill the water if there is any change in the discharge rate. At a higher flow rate I am fearful that the resin beads might pack against the screen at the top and cause a pressure build up. If you exceed the pressure or flow rate over time any small flaw in the plastic (column or cap) could result in a catastrophic failure. Since you heard a "pop" when the column failured I would guess there was some kind of pressure build up in the unit. Your experience seems to support my belief that one should always use caution and cut in half the claims of any manufacture.
Honeybee
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
When I flush before the recharge, the entire column of resin raises up off of the bottom and goes all the way to the top. My recharge instructions say to "forcefully flush in reverse manner to expel air and redistribute the media". Air doesn't get expelled if I don't run enough water through it to raise the resins. The media doesn't get redistributed if I don't run enough water through it to raise the resins. When I flush after a recharge, it says to flush in the "normal" direction, (this way the color change is occuring from the top down), so the media can't raise upwards, but you may have a point about the media getting packed against the screen. That would be an obstruction in the outlet and could cause a pressure build up. It is all still a little confusing to me, the resin is packed against the bottom screen when the units are running/filtering normally. In my units (series 10) there has to be about 30 lbs. (guess) of resin in the column. It sounds like you received a different/ better/ more complete set of instructions than what I got. The only paperwork I received was how to recharge.
How are you monitoring the flow rate to know if you exceed the 60l/h amount?
I received another email from Kip Tani this morning and I let him know that I gave you his email.
How are you monitoring the flow rate to know if you exceed the 60l/h amount?
I received another email from Kip Tani this morning and I let him know that I gave you his email.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
So, I called the plastics fabricator down by the university to see if he could help me figure out what kind of adhesive would work. He tells me that...
1) The end caps can't be made of nylon because nylon will not accept adhesives.
2) The clear canister can't be made of acrylic because the muriatic acid would attack it.
1) The end caps can't be made of nylon because nylon will not accept adhesives.
2) The clear canister can't be made of acrylic because the muriatic acid would attack it.
Rick
1. Yes the beads are packed against the top (bottom) and I have at times upped the flow rate to start the mixing but once this mixing begins I always reduce the water flow and carefully watched the discharge rate. I am concerned that a "tight" pack might block the water flow and allow an increase in pressure. 7 or 8 psi is not very much pressure!!!!! I think the term "forcefull" refers to water flow not water pressure. Remember that increased pressure over time may equal failure.
2. I started with the smallest resin columns but they needed frequent recharge so I up graded to a #3. I use much less water than you and now recharge once every two years. I have never had problems with the beads failing to completely mix and recharge. I time my flush by watching the pH change in the drain water.
3. To regulate my flow rate (during dieonization) I time the dischage over a 15 second period and calculate the l/hour. I have a tall, narrow plastic container that has marks to indicate the 20, 30,40, 50, and 60 l/h when water is collected for 15 seconds.
4. Another point to remember is that while the manufacture states that the column will function at 60l/h any good chemistry student knows that a slow rate (20l/h) will produce a far superior water produce. A slower flush rate will do a good job of removing excess acid or base. A slow flush rate may take longer but it is better that having to buy a new column!!!!!!!
5. My info sheet is not much but I will see if I can get you a copy.
Honeybee
Honeybee
1. Yes the beads are packed against the top (bottom) and I have at times upped the flow rate to start the mixing but once this mixing begins I always reduce the water flow and carefully watched the discharge rate. I am concerned that a "tight" pack might block the water flow and allow an increase in pressure. 7 or 8 psi is not very much pressure!!!!! I think the term "forcefull" refers to water flow not water pressure. Remember that increased pressure over time may equal failure.
2. I started with the smallest resin columns but they needed frequent recharge so I up graded to a #3. I use much less water than you and now recharge once every two years. I have never had problems with the beads failing to completely mix and recharge. I time my flush by watching the pH change in the drain water.
3. To regulate my flow rate (during dieonization) I time the dischage over a 15 second period and calculate the l/hour. I have a tall, narrow plastic container that has marks to indicate the 20, 30,40, 50, and 60 l/h when water is collected for 15 seconds.
4. Another point to remember is that while the manufacture states that the column will function at 60l/h any good chemistry student knows that a slow rate (20l/h) will produce a far superior water produce. A slower flush rate will do a good job of removing excess acid or base. A slow flush rate may take longer but it is better that having to buy a new column!!!!!!!
5. My info sheet is not much but I will see if I can get you a copy.
Honeybee
Honeybee
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
honeybee- thanks for all of that information. If you are able to send me a copy of what you have, that would be great. I appreciate it.
jnarowe- I've got plenty of rope, but I'm not quite to that point ... yet.
If I had only known some of this stuff beforehand, all of this might could have been avoided. Not translating the words on the top of the caps was my fault. If I had done so back when I bought these units, not using the hose clamps probably would have single-handedly avoided this problem. But it still irks me that I didn't receive proper instructions on flow rates, pressure rates, etc. It all seemed so simple back then, connect tap water supply to unit...turn on tap water supply.
I am on my way down to to the plastic fabricator to let him look at it. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will turn out to be all PVC.
jnarowe- I've got plenty of rope, but I'm not quite to that point ... yet.
If I had only known some of this stuff beforehand, all of this might could have been avoided. Not translating the words on the top of the caps was my fault. If I had done so back when I bought these units, not using the hose clamps probably would have single-handedly avoided this problem. But it still irks me that I didn't receive proper instructions on flow rates, pressure rates, etc. It all seemed so simple back then, connect tap water supply to unit...turn on tap water supply.
I am on my way down to to the plastic fabricator to let him look at it. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will turn out to be all PVC.
sweetdreamfiji
New member
Rick,
I have seen similar resin columns swell during recharge. If you see a change in the level of the resin after recharge that might indicate that the resin changed in volume. If the resin was dry at the top and swelled below the dry portion it might get stuck and cause pressure build up. If you could keep the resin fully wet at all times that might help. I would have thought that with your diameter tube it would not allow pressure buildup in the resin, but 8 psi is not very much pressure.
Good luck.
Mike
I have seen similar resin columns swell during recharge. If you see a change in the level of the resin after recharge that might indicate that the resin changed in volume. If the resin was dry at the top and swelled below the dry portion it might get stuck and cause pressure build up. If you could keep the resin fully wet at all times that might help. I would have thought that with your diameter tube it would not allow pressure buildup in the resin, but 8 psi is not very much pressure.
Good luck.
Mike
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Thanks for the tip. I'm sure the resin wasn't stuck because I reverse flush it before recharging. When I did the reverse flush, the entire mass of resin moved up to the top of the canister (like it always has). When I turn off the water after reverse flushing, the resins start to tumble back down to the bottom little by little. Very neat to watch, it kind of looks like a lava lamp running upside down.
It was during the flush after the recharge that the thing broke. Maybe like has been referred to by some others, there was some kind of hinderance in the pathway either from the resin itself becoming compacted (like honeybee suggested), or maybe the fine micron screen inside the unit will create enough backpressure if the recommended flow rates are exceeded. It is still somewhat of a mystery to me because I didn't do anything different than I have always done. I will definitely be keeping a much closer eye on the flow from now on, and absolutely will not put any clamps on the hoses.
The clear canister tube is indeed acrylic. Like I said above, I was sure it was. Honeybee, you are right about the acid. He had a sheet with chemical compatabilities. Extruded acrylic is supposed to be safe with muriatic acid up to ... (I can't remember the exact number, but it was something like 37% or 47%, way more concentrated than what we use to recharge). The end caps, according to the fabricator, most likely are ABS plastic. The fabricator cut the acrylic tube nice and square for me on his table saw. He gave me some 2 part weld-on 10 which is a 2 part epoxy type bonding agent. He said if anything is going to work, this will. I had to trim down the rigid center tube and mix the epoxy to put it all back together. We will see tomorrow how it holds up.
It was during the flush after the recharge that the thing broke. Maybe like has been referred to by some others, there was some kind of hinderance in the pathway either from the resin itself becoming compacted (like honeybee suggested), or maybe the fine micron screen inside the unit will create enough backpressure if the recommended flow rates are exceeded. It is still somewhat of a mystery to me because I didn't do anything different than I have always done. I will definitely be keeping a much closer eye on the flow from now on, and absolutely will not put any clamps on the hoses.
The clear canister tube is indeed acrylic. Like I said above, I was sure it was. Honeybee, you are right about the acid. He had a sheet with chemical compatabilities. Extruded acrylic is supposed to be safe with muriatic acid up to ... (I can't remember the exact number, but it was something like 37% or 47%, way more concentrated than what we use to recharge). The end caps, according to the fabricator, most likely are ABS plastic. The fabricator cut the acrylic tube nice and square for me on his table saw. He gave me some 2 part weld-on 10 which is a 2 part epoxy type bonding agent. He said if anything is going to work, this will. I had to trim down the rigid center tube and mix the epoxy to put it all back together. We will see tomorrow how it holds up.
