Lets talk about Ich
- Thread starter Paul B
- Start date
annewayne
New member
I've had my tank up and running for 9 years now. Last week my furnace in my house broke, which led to serious temp. changes in the water. 2 days later i had ich, no new editions or nothing, i've never had ich in that particular tank before..So you tell me if every tank has ICH.. I don't it came from other than the fish have always had it.. just my thoughts though.
Not every tank has Ich. Crypto is a parasitic infection, don't introduce the parasite to your tank, and you won't have it. It doesn't blow into the tank on the wind, so you have to introduce it to the tank somehow.
Do most people's tanks have Ich? Probably, because most people don't quarantine EVERYTHING before making it part of their tank. If you have fish in the tank, they can harbor the parasite without showing signs, and when they then get stressed, the parasite multiplies to the extent that it overwhelms the fish immune response and you then see it.
If you haven't quarantined everything in your tank before putting it into the display, you probably have Ich.
For most people, they don't have the patience or resources for proper quarntine procedures. The resting stage of the parasite can lay dormant for months, and these "spores" can hitchhike into your display on corals, on snails or crabs or other inverts, mixed in with that new macroalgae, live sand, and live rocks.
Once in the display, if there are any fish present, the parasite can continue to breed at less than noticable levels as the fish will harbor an infection like typhoid marry, and only succumb to it when stressed. Of course, new fish additions will usually be stressed out, and may not have the acquired immunity that your current display fish have, so when you introduce them... they get infected and show signs. Usually new fish are stressed and in poor shape, so you get higher mortality.
It is also possible that your new fish has the infection and brings it in, and your other fish don't show the infection because they are healthy, but now you got it into the display tank and you aren't going to get it out unless you let the display go fallow for many months without fish.
The fish themselves will have to go to quarantine in tanks without substrate, and you will need to either keep copper in the quarantine for an extended period of time until you can break the lifecycle of the parasite, or follow some other procedure like rotating tanks every so many days so that the resting spores don't have a chance to hatch and reinfect the fish.
The way most people set up their tanks with live rock from the sea, and the fact that most people don't quarantine everything for extended periods before introducing them into a tank, and the fact that people don't do proper quarantine of fish before introducing them to the tank... yeah... most probably have Ich in them.
Do most people's tanks have Ich? Probably, because most people don't quarantine EVERYTHING before making it part of their tank. If you have fish in the tank, they can harbor the parasite without showing signs, and when they then get stressed, the parasite multiplies to the extent that it overwhelms the fish immune response and you then see it.
If you haven't quarantined everything in your tank before putting it into the display, you probably have Ich.
For most people, they don't have the patience or resources for proper quarntine procedures. The resting stage of the parasite can lay dormant for months, and these "spores" can hitchhike into your display on corals, on snails or crabs or other inverts, mixed in with that new macroalgae, live sand, and live rocks.
Once in the display, if there are any fish present, the parasite can continue to breed at less than noticable levels as the fish will harbor an infection like typhoid marry, and only succumb to it when stressed. Of course, new fish additions will usually be stressed out, and may not have the acquired immunity that your current display fish have, so when you introduce them... they get infected and show signs. Usually new fish are stressed and in poor shape, so you get higher mortality.
It is also possible that your new fish has the infection and brings it in, and your other fish don't show the infection because they are healthy, but now you got it into the display tank and you aren't going to get it out unless you let the display go fallow for many months without fish.
The fish themselves will have to go to quarantine in tanks without substrate, and you will need to either keep copper in the quarantine for an extended period of time until you can break the lifecycle of the parasite, or follow some other procedure like rotating tanks every so many days so that the resting spores don't have a chance to hatch and reinfect the fish.
The way most people set up their tanks with live rock from the sea, and the fact that most people don't quarantine everything for extended periods before introducing them into a tank, and the fact that people don't do proper quarantine of fish before introducing them to the tank... yeah... most probably have Ich in them.
Zoom
Premium Member
My tank is not as old as Paul B but after running with it for 13 years and still have some fish in the tank that long i can said yes you can have parasites and not infect your fish till a stress will bring it out .
I have this PBT for 9 years now and every time i re arrange my tank the fish comes down with some type of parasites. Some of the fish will get some spots but not like the PBT .
I do have some pictures of the fish when the parasites was full blown this picture is about a year or two old yes the fish still doing good and the parasites was completely gone after about a month .
No one was able to identify this parasites it is not Ick but i do have ick in my tank also last time was about six months a go i got a Purple tang from my sons tank and after quarantine the fish in hipo for six weeks it came down with many Ick spots after i put it in my reef tank , but it clear out on it own.
Here the PBT full off parasites.
Here is the fish today no parasites to be fund.
I have this PBT for 9 years now and every time i re arrange my tank the fish comes down with some type of parasites. Some of the fish will get some spots but not like the PBT .
I do have some pictures of the fish when the parasites was full blown this picture is about a year or two old yes the fish still doing good and the parasites was completely gone after about a month .
No one was able to identify this parasites it is not Ick but i do have ick in my tank also last time was about six months a go i got a Purple tang from my sons tank and after quarantine the fish in hipo for six weeks it came down with many Ick spots after i put it in my reef tank , but it clear out on it own.
Here the PBT full off parasites.
Here is the fish today no parasites to be fund.
Paul B
Premium Member
That is exactly the case in my reef. I am surprised some people still think you can't have ich in a tank and still have healthy fish.
It also seems (oddly enough) that tanks with ich present have the longest living fish. Of course this is just conjecture on my part but new tanks are the ones with full blown ich and they are also the tanks where fish have the shortest lifespans.
Paul
It also seems (oddly enough) that tanks with ich present have the longest living fish. Of course this is just conjecture on my part but new tanks are the ones with full blown ich and they are also the tanks where fish have the shortest lifespans.
Paul
Hi Paul... I think you are putting the cart before the horse when you say that tanks with ich present have the longest living fish.
Your fish may be living long healthy lives even with Ich present in the aquarium, but I seriously doubt they are living longer because you have Ich present in the aquarium.
You having an established aquarium for long term points to you having good husbandry skills and keeping stable parameters that allow your fish to live long healthy lives.
People who are just getting into the hobby usually don't have good husbrandry skills - they aren't feeding correct foods, they aren't maintaining water quality, they stock too many fish that stress each other out, etc. The stressed fish, in less than ideal conditions, then succumb to the Ich that is present.
I think you can have healthy fish even with Ich present, as long as it doesn't get out of control and reach plague proportions. At the same point, if the only thing you take out of the equation is the Ich parasites, I think your fish would be even healthier.
Your fish may be living long healthy lives even with Ich present in the aquarium, but I seriously doubt they are living longer because you have Ich present in the aquarium.
You having an established aquarium for long term points to you having good husbandry skills and keeping stable parameters that allow your fish to live long healthy lives.
People who are just getting into the hobby usually don't have good husbrandry skills - they aren't feeding correct foods, they aren't maintaining water quality, they stock too many fish that stress each other out, etc. The stressed fish, in less than ideal conditions, then succumb to the Ich that is present.
I think you can have healthy fish even with Ich present, as long as it doesn't get out of control and reach plague proportions. At the same point, if the only thing you take out of the equation is the Ich parasites, I think your fish would be even healthier.
Paul B
Premium Member
Hello there ddoering, you are correct. I did imply that but I should have said that due to the fact that the fish are healthy enough to live a long life the paracite does not get the chance to infect the fish to epidemic proportions. Or something to that effect. I know it is not the paracite that makes the fish live longer, it is the general health of the animal which makes it
"immune" from ich.
Also to muddy the waters a little more I believe the age of the tank also has something to do with the health of the fish and therefore the immunity or lack of immunity from ich.
It can be argued that the age of the tank goes along with the skill of the aquarist but I believe there is something else happening. I don't know what it is either.
I do know that I can give one of my healthy old fish away to someone with a new system and it will usually not last very long.
It seems in new tanks most fish only live a couple of years, most fish, not all. In my tank, if the fish lives a week it will live forever, unless I kill it with some experiment gone wrong.
Also in new tanks ich runs rampant as you can tell from reading all the ich posts. You almost never read about ich in an old tank.
Have a great day.
Paul
"immune" from ich.
Also to muddy the waters a little more I believe the age of the tank also has something to do with the health of the fish and therefore the immunity or lack of immunity from ich.
It can be argued that the age of the tank goes along with the skill of the aquarist but I believe there is something else happening. I don't know what it is either.
I do know that I can give one of my healthy old fish away to someone with a new system and it will usually not last very long.
It seems in new tanks most fish only live a couple of years, most fish, not all. In my tank, if the fish lives a week it will live forever, unless I kill it with some experiment gone wrong.
Also in new tanks ich runs rampant as you can tell from reading all the ich posts. You almost never read about ich in an old tank.
Have a great day.
Paul
Hi Paul,
I agree that the established tank is the key to success.
I keep putting off setting up a nice big tank because I end up moving around, and I don't want to get into getting the tank established and then destroying everything in it by moving.
I read post after post of people setting up tanks, and from the point they first mix the first batch of saltwater to when they are adding fish is days or weeks... and then they are all over with "Help! my xxxx fish keep dying"
What do they do? They keep going with knee jerk reactions and miracle cures and adding new fish, and never letting the system get stabilized and established. Many don't do any quarantine period, or only quarantine fish but are always adding frags from a friends tank or a new coral from the LFS without thought that these are also vectors for introducing bad things to their tank.
My last post was more to get the attention of others reading this thread than you. A lot of people out there read things so literally and then they are off to the LFS and are going to do something that one person said worked for them without understanding why. I read a post a few weeks back about a person who was literally cooking his live rock... i.e. boiling it, after having read some of the threads about live rock "cooking" to clear out phosphates and other organics by bacteria.
I can only imagine somebody reading this thread and thinking "wow, thats a great idea... I'll introduce Ich to my tank on purpose to help my fish build up an immunity" as if it is like a vaccination so they don't have to worry about introducing new fish and having to go through the "hassle" of quarantine.
I read a lot of articles about ich and its treatments a while back, and I really wish I could find that article or thread that talked about ich dying off in an aquarium that doesn't get new additions after 6 or so generations due to attrition or population dying out. Too bad the search engine isn't friendly for weeding through topics that have so many entries... that and I'm not even sure if it was a thread here on RC. If I recall correctly, the reason they were talking about Ich not being seen (even if it is present) in established tanks was because the existing fish had been repeatedly infected and had built up acquired immunity, so that they never really got infected to the level that the parasite could get out of control. And the population would either completely die out, or be so low that it was negligible unless you introduced a new fish that usually gets overwhelmed by an outbreak of parasites. Why would the new fish be overwhelmed? Usually new fish are in much worse health after shipping, being in holding tanks at the store, being stressed out by being put into a new environment, and also because they are then put into an environment where they may be exposed to many more parasites than they were in the wild or in dealers tanks running copper. They get introduced into your established tank that has a dormant ich presence, the ich is able to quickly explode in population on this new fish, and the infection for the new fish is often enough to put them over the edge. A note of caution, putting in a new fish also exposes your existing fish to the already present ich, the new fish can act as a host for an explosion in the population which can then overwhelm the fish you already had that were able to fight off the mild amounts of parasites in the tank without symptom. I think a lot of the people who blame the new fish for introducing Ich already had it, the new fish was just the catalyst/host allowing for a quick explosion in the parasite population of the tank. This is why you see people who went through quarantining new fish still having issue with new fish breaking out in Ich, and then maybe after this they see their existing fish showing slight Ich infections... they jump to the wrong conclusion thinking the quarantine didn't work, and then don't bother to quarantine in the future. Then they get flatworms, or brook, or some other plague
One other comment, even if you don't see Ich on your fish, and the current Ich population is low enough to be fought off by your established fish, if you do have Ich in your tank it is still probably much higher concentrations than that seen in the wild. It is the dilution factor and the amount of Ich in the wild that when it hatches from the cyst or spore stage never finds a host to breed.
In an aquarium, Ich can balloon out of control very quickly because of the limited volume of water, once ich starts to reproduce, many more of the parasites will successfully find hosts and breed again since the fish are in a limited area and can't swim away from the substrate where all the spores go and go to a new part of the ocean.
Cheers,
Doug
I agree that the established tank is the key to success.
I keep putting off setting up a nice big tank because I end up moving around, and I don't want to get into getting the tank established and then destroying everything in it by moving.
I read post after post of people setting up tanks, and from the point they first mix the first batch of saltwater to when they are adding fish is days or weeks... and then they are all over with "Help! my xxxx fish keep dying"
What do they do? They keep going with knee jerk reactions and miracle cures and adding new fish, and never letting the system get stabilized and established. Many don't do any quarantine period, or only quarantine fish but are always adding frags from a friends tank or a new coral from the LFS without thought that these are also vectors for introducing bad things to their tank.
My last post was more to get the attention of others reading this thread than you. A lot of people out there read things so literally and then they are off to the LFS and are going to do something that one person said worked for them without understanding why. I read a post a few weeks back about a person who was literally cooking his live rock... i.e. boiling it, after having read some of the threads about live rock "cooking" to clear out phosphates and other organics by bacteria.
I can only imagine somebody reading this thread and thinking "wow, thats a great idea... I'll introduce Ich to my tank on purpose to help my fish build up an immunity" as if it is like a vaccination so they don't have to worry about introducing new fish and having to go through the "hassle" of quarantine.
I read a lot of articles about ich and its treatments a while back, and I really wish I could find that article or thread that talked about ich dying off in an aquarium that doesn't get new additions after 6 or so generations due to attrition or population dying out. Too bad the search engine isn't friendly for weeding through topics that have so many entries... that and I'm not even sure if it was a thread here on RC. If I recall correctly, the reason they were talking about Ich not being seen (even if it is present) in established tanks was because the existing fish had been repeatedly infected and had built up acquired immunity, so that they never really got infected to the level that the parasite could get out of control. And the population would either completely die out, or be so low that it was negligible unless you introduced a new fish that usually gets overwhelmed by an outbreak of parasites. Why would the new fish be overwhelmed? Usually new fish are in much worse health after shipping, being in holding tanks at the store, being stressed out by being put into a new environment, and also because they are then put into an environment where they may be exposed to many more parasites than they were in the wild or in dealers tanks running copper. They get introduced into your established tank that has a dormant ich presence, the ich is able to quickly explode in population on this new fish, and the infection for the new fish is often enough to put them over the edge. A note of caution, putting in a new fish also exposes your existing fish to the already present ich, the new fish can act as a host for an explosion in the population which can then overwhelm the fish you already had that were able to fight off the mild amounts of parasites in the tank without symptom. I think a lot of the people who blame the new fish for introducing Ich already had it, the new fish was just the catalyst/host allowing for a quick explosion in the parasite population of the tank. This is why you see people who went through quarantining new fish still having issue with new fish breaking out in Ich, and then maybe after this they see their existing fish showing slight Ich infections... they jump to the wrong conclusion thinking the quarantine didn't work, and then don't bother to quarantine in the future. Then they get flatworms, or brook, or some other plague
One other comment, even if you don't see Ich on your fish, and the current Ich population is low enough to be fought off by your established fish, if you do have Ich in your tank it is still probably much higher concentrations than that seen in the wild. It is the dilution factor and the amount of Ich in the wild that when it hatches from the cyst or spore stage never finds a host to breed.
In an aquarium, Ich can balloon out of control very quickly because of the limited volume of water, once ich starts to reproduce, many more of the parasites will successfully find hosts and breed again since the fish are in a limited area and can't swim away from the substrate where all the spores go and go to a new part of the ocean.
Cheers,
Doug
I would like to note that I have seen Ich drip acclimated from fresh to full salt and back with Mollies. If the Ich is "expecting" full salt and hatches out into brackish it dies before it can adjust. But in the swimming phase it can be acclimated if the change is slow enough. If you treat a fish coming from full salt with malachite green briefly in quarantine (while acclimating) to kill anything swimming and then go into hyposalinity until everything on the fish has attempted to reproduce you will get all of the Ich. A temperature of 82 F or better will get the Ich to reproduce in four or five days. This reduces the quarantine time to about a week or two weeks if you are paranoid.
If you do get Ich in a reef tank, merely removing the host fish does not guarantee elimination of dormant cysts. But if you have many predators of microscopic organisms (sea cucumbers, starfish, worms, snails, nudibranchs, foraminiferans, etc) that will scour the surfaces and the water, non-reproducing populations of single celled creatures are not likely to survive for long. I suppose it is possible that even in this case Ich might survive, but it is unlikely.
Fish do seem to develop immunities to Ich that keep it at a low level until the fish are stressed, but these “acquired†immunities can also be “lost†if Ich is actually removed from the tank. Healthy, well fed, non stressed fish can develop full blown Ich in days after introduction if it was not present in the tank before so that they have no immunity. I don’t believe that such immunities are really “acquired†or “lost†so much as activated or deactivated. The body doesn’t waste energy keeping up defense against non-existent threats, but it does keep a "library" of responses to threats. I am convinced this library is passed on genetically as well. Biological defense systems are extremely complicated and take some time to activate or deactivate, but you can get sick from the same bug again if your defenses have been dropped after a long time not seeing the enemy.
I’m not sure whether it is better to go to the trouble of exterminating Ich from a tank in all cases. If you have a long standing reef with fish that all have immunities activated and don’t plan to introduce any new fish it’s probably not worth the effort. If you did want to introduce a new fish you might consider doing a “contaminated quarantineâ€Â. Inoculate the quarantine tank every day for a week with water from the system the new fish is entering so that it will be exposed to whatever parasites are in the water. The week will ensure that you catch the parasite in the swimming phase of its lifecycle. Don’t treat with anything immediately, just observe the fish. If things go bad, you already have the fish in quarantine and can treat it immediately. Either way, after a week you can treat the fish for whatever it has or whatever you think it might have out of paranoia. And then add it to the display knowing that it has already had a chance activate immunities to what it might face there so that it won’t act as a catalyst for a tank wide outbreak of Ich.
Or you could just toss the new fish in and hope for the best. Usually you will get away with it if you buy healthy looking fish and maintain good water quality and feeding, but if you keep doing this sooner or later it’s going to bite you.
:smokin:
If you do get Ich in a reef tank, merely removing the host fish does not guarantee elimination of dormant cysts. But if you have many predators of microscopic organisms (sea cucumbers, starfish, worms, snails, nudibranchs, foraminiferans, etc) that will scour the surfaces and the water, non-reproducing populations of single celled creatures are not likely to survive for long. I suppose it is possible that even in this case Ich might survive, but it is unlikely.
Fish do seem to develop immunities to Ich that keep it at a low level until the fish are stressed, but these “acquired†immunities can also be “lost†if Ich is actually removed from the tank. Healthy, well fed, non stressed fish can develop full blown Ich in days after introduction if it was not present in the tank before so that they have no immunity. I don’t believe that such immunities are really “acquired†or “lost†so much as activated or deactivated. The body doesn’t waste energy keeping up defense against non-existent threats, but it does keep a "library" of responses to threats. I am convinced this library is passed on genetically as well. Biological defense systems are extremely complicated and take some time to activate or deactivate, but you can get sick from the same bug again if your defenses have been dropped after a long time not seeing the enemy.
I’m not sure whether it is better to go to the trouble of exterminating Ich from a tank in all cases. If you have a long standing reef with fish that all have immunities activated and don’t plan to introduce any new fish it’s probably not worth the effort. If you did want to introduce a new fish you might consider doing a “contaminated quarantineâ€Â. Inoculate the quarantine tank every day for a week with water from the system the new fish is entering so that it will be exposed to whatever parasites are in the water. The week will ensure that you catch the parasite in the swimming phase of its lifecycle. Don’t treat with anything immediately, just observe the fish. If things go bad, you already have the fish in quarantine and can treat it immediately. Either way, after a week you can treat the fish for whatever it has or whatever you think it might have out of paranoia. And then add it to the display knowing that it has already had a chance activate immunities to what it might face there so that it won’t act as a catalyst for a tank wide outbreak of Ich.
Or you could just toss the new fish in and hope for the best. Usually you will get away with it if you buy healthy looking fish and maintain good water quality and feeding, but if you keep doing this sooner or later it’s going to bite you.
:smokin:
Paul B
Premium Member
To update that gobi I bought with ich. I removed it from my reef because it was obviousely dying from ich. I put it in copper for two days until it was clear of visable paracites then I put it back in my reef where it is doing fine and looks the picture of health.
Of course I know the fish is not completely cured of ich and in another tank I would not have put it back for ten days.
It was the firsat time I used copper in many years and I am fairly sure they don't even manufacture this brand anymore. It is a combination of copper and formalin.
A better, quicker cure for ich is quinicrine hydrocloride and copper. That will work in about a day and if you have a fish with a very severe case it is the only thing that may work. The quinicrine is used for malaria in humans and is hard to get in the States.
Newbees, quarintine all your animals. Don't do what I do or you will most likely lose your stock.
Paul
Of course I know the fish is not completely cured of ich and in another tank I would not have put it back for ten days.
It was the firsat time I used copper in many years and I am fairly sure they don't even manufacture this brand anymore. It is a combination of copper and formalin.
A better, quicker cure for ich is quinicrine hydrocloride and copper. That will work in about a day and if you have a fish with a very severe case it is the only thing that may work. The quinicrine is used for malaria in humans and is hard to get in the States.
Newbees, quarintine all your animals. Don't do what I do or you will most likely lose your stock.
Paul
Hey Paul, and everyone else. here's my 2 cents on the issue.
I've got 2 tanks curently, one has been running in some form or fashon for about 9 years now, the last 3 strictly with NSW. The second tank I've only had for about 1 1/2 years but the previous owner had it for 3. It was set up at my house using strictly NSW.
in the last I'd say 3 years, I've only had 1 case of ich. That case happened when I moved the inhabitants, rock and sand from my 400G to a 200G in prepration of moving the 400 G. Nothing new was added to the tank. All of the fish in the tank got ich, even the 4 1/2 year old fish. I eventually had to treat the tank as I started loosing fish and the ich was not clearing up. Luckly I saved the rest of the fish, including my 4+ year old pair of Naso tangs. I have not seen any ich in the tank since. I do beleive that it was caused by stress of moving everything into a smaller tank.
In my older tank, I recently received a clown fish from a friend and it had ich on him when I got him. I placed him in the tank as I do not have a QT set up. I have never treated that tank for anything. Within a few days, the ich was completely gone and none of the other fish ever were infected.
Another small story that was told to me by the curator at UCSB who manages their SW facility. In all the years he's been managing their system, he has never had a ich outbreak. They use NSW that is constantly flowing thru their systems. I also had a conversation with him on the subject.
In my experiences and conversations, I've come to 2 conclusions:
1. Ich is always present in our tanks. It's only when our fish are stressed that it becomes visible to us. Otherwise their immune system helps them fight it off.
2. There is something in NSW that cannot be replicated in ASW. This/these elements help our fish to fight of desiases as well as help our corals. I can't scientifically prove it, but from observations on my tank, after changing to NSW with no other changes, I've seen brighter colors in my fish, my corals look healither and more alive, my fish look healither and do not suscumb to deasies.
That's my 2 cents on it. Take it for what it's worth.
I've got 2 tanks curently, one has been running in some form or fashon for about 9 years now, the last 3 strictly with NSW. The second tank I've only had for about 1 1/2 years but the previous owner had it for 3. It was set up at my house using strictly NSW.
in the last I'd say 3 years, I've only had 1 case of ich. That case happened when I moved the inhabitants, rock and sand from my 400G to a 200G in prepration of moving the 400 G. Nothing new was added to the tank. All of the fish in the tank got ich, even the 4 1/2 year old fish. I eventually had to treat the tank as I started loosing fish and the ich was not clearing up. Luckly I saved the rest of the fish, including my 4+ year old pair of Naso tangs. I have not seen any ich in the tank since. I do beleive that it was caused by stress of moving everything into a smaller tank.
In my older tank, I recently received a clown fish from a friend and it had ich on him when I got him. I placed him in the tank as I do not have a QT set up. I have never treated that tank for anything. Within a few days, the ich was completely gone and none of the other fish ever were infected.
Another small story that was told to me by the curator at UCSB who manages their SW facility. In all the years he's been managing their system, he has never had a ich outbreak. They use NSW that is constantly flowing thru their systems. I also had a conversation with him on the subject.
In my experiences and conversations, I've come to 2 conclusions:
1. Ich is always present in our tanks. It's only when our fish are stressed that it becomes visible to us. Otherwise their immune system helps them fight it off.
2. There is something in NSW that cannot be replicated in ASW. This/these elements help our fish to fight of desiases as well as help our corals. I can't scientifically prove it, but from observations on my tank, after changing to NSW with no other changes, I've seen brighter colors in my fish, my corals look healither and more alive, my fish look healither and do not suscumb to deasies.
That's my 2 cents on it. Take it for what it's worth.
Paul B
Premium Member
Chevy I totally agree. My fish will also get ich if I stress them like giving them to semeone else or when they are about to die from old age. I also agree about NSW. I would rather use slightly polluted NSW than pure ASW. I live on an Island so I can get it but I am still a few miles from the sea and it is heavy so I don't use it exclusively but if I could I would.
As I always say, all of our fish come from NSW none of them came from ASW.
It's my Wife's birthday today so I am taking her to the East end (Montauk) for the weekend.
Take care and have a great day.
Paul
As I always say, all of our fish come from NSW none of them came from ASW.
It's my Wife's birthday today so I am taking her to the East end (Montauk) for the weekend.
Take care and have a great day.
Paul
Tell her Happy B-day. Enjoy the trip.
superedge88
New member
I'll throw in my two cents. To those reading that are new to the hobby and may not know any better, the name "ich" is being used VERY loosely. Ich is short for Ichthyophthirius which is the freshwater relative of saltwaters cryptocaryon. So in reference to our saltwater aquariums the use of the word ich is not technically correct. Copper can kill crypt. though there are copper resistant and also euryhaline strains of crypt as well. The use of chloroquine diphosphate has also proven very effective in killing crypt, as well as amyloodinium though chloroquine can be cost prohibitive depending on the situation.
Paul B
Premium Member
It is true that we call all paracites ich but salt water ich looking paracites used to be called oodinium not we call everything ich. Copper will kill most paracites anyway so it does not matter.
Chloroquine or quinicrine are both malaria medications and both work for ich. I discovered that if you use them in conjunction with copper they work very fast.
Paul
Chloroquine or quinicrine are both malaria medications and both work for ich. I discovered that if you use them in conjunction with copper they work very fast.
Paul
I've read the same(or similar) article Doug did on successive generations of ich getting weaker. It was that the researchers had trouble getting ich to survive past 11 mos. or so. Actually a known effect in many parasites and viruses. It is that that leads me to believe a single strain of ich cannot always be present.
I have also seen tanks with sub-clinical infections that come and go. And I've seen tanks with these get wiped out when a new fish was added. Either from stress or being the vector that triggers a massive ich population boom.
I know QT is tough. I've lost fish before I got good at setting up a QT. I've also had my tank almost wiped out by ich(came in on a mandarin I didn't QT). For someone new it's a tough choice.
I have also seen tanks with sub-clinical infections that come and go. And I've seen tanks with these get wiped out when a new fish was added. Either from stress or being the vector that triggers a massive ich population boom.
I know QT is tough. I've lost fish before I got good at setting up a QT. I've also had my tank almost wiped out by ich(came in on a mandarin I didn't QT). For someone new it's a tough choice.
IMO, every tank has ich no matter how well they quarantine new livestock. I suspect that cyst stage of the parasite is long live, longer than we may think because most parasitic cyst stage are meant for protection of itself from unfavorable environmental i.e. lack of food or transmission.
I relate ich to human herpes. Everybody has at least 3 strains of the herpes virus. i.e. chicken pox and cold sores are strains of herpes. In a healthy individual the viral particles lay dormant (hidden) in our nervous system protected from the immune system. And our immune system keep the viral particles in check.
The virus comes about only when the host is under stress conditions, i.e. illness which suppresses and/or incapacitates the immune system (HIV), or exposure to a naïve individual.
Now how does this relate to ich. In our close systems, ich IMO can survive at low concentrations and healthy fish do not show signs of illness (the fish immune system keeps the ich in check) or in a dormant stage as cyst.
Now, when you move rocks around, this stresses you fish out to a point that the immune system is suppressed (they think the world is coming apart!). The suppression of the immune system gives the parasite the perfect opportunity to proliferate (they are parasites and therefore opportunist). The similar situation occurs with the introduction of a new fish. The new fish may or may not have acquired immunity to ich but the introduction of the fish to a new environment is stressful and therefore immune system supressed and hence susceptible to ich.
That’s why, again imo, many people still get ich even after weeks of quarantine. The main goal is minimize stress i.e. stop moving things around
I relate ich to human herpes. Everybody has at least 3 strains of the herpes virus. i.e. chicken pox and cold sores are strains of herpes. In a healthy individual the viral particles lay dormant (hidden) in our nervous system protected from the immune system. And our immune system keep the viral particles in check.
The virus comes about only when the host is under stress conditions, i.e. illness which suppresses and/or incapacitates the immune system (HIV), or exposure to a naïve individual.
Now how does this relate to ich. In our close systems, ich IMO can survive at low concentrations and healthy fish do not show signs of illness (the fish immune system keeps the ich in check) or in a dormant stage as cyst.
Now, when you move rocks around, this stresses you fish out to a point that the immune system is suppressed (they think the world is coming apart!). The suppression of the immune system gives the parasite the perfect opportunity to proliferate (they are parasites and therefore opportunist). The similar situation occurs with the introduction of a new fish. The new fish may or may not have acquired immunity to ich but the introduction of the fish to a new environment is stressful and therefore immune system supressed and hence susceptible to ich.
That’s why, again imo, many people still get ich even after weeks of quarantine. The main goal is minimize stress i.e. stop moving things around
thriceanangel
New member
There has to be a biological predator of the Ich parasite that keeps it in check. Everything has a predator unless its at the top pf the fod chain. Seems to me if someone could figure out what microbe eats Ich, they'd save countless fish, and line their wallets too. I know cleaners will eat some, but something has to nab it in the free swimming stage. Has anyone looked into this?
firewill65
New member
ok let me see if i have this straight...I'm setting up my 180 in a few weeks...once I add all the live rock and self made saltwater, let it cycle etc... After a month or two i decide to buy a tang...I keep him in a seperate tank for 6 weeks, nothing seems to be wrong with him...I add him to the display tank. With all that said...would it still be possible to have ich present in my tank?
